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04-10-2012, 01:16 PM   #691
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Yup, K5 + 16/50 is still a better buy than 7D + 17/55. But there's a lot that Pentax lacks. If you're going to buy limited lenses, of course the Pentax makes sense. If you want to buy 'pro' lenses and need/want flash/AF, etc., the Canon makes sense.

Of course you could ignore both of them and buy the Nikon instead, and get the good sensor with the 'pro' lenses and the AF/flash/etc. You'd still be missing the limited lenses, though.

04-10-2012, 01:20 PM   #692
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Yup, K5 + 16/50 is still a better buy than 7D + 17/55. But there's a lot that Pentax lacks. If you're going to buy limited lenses, of course the Pentax makes sense. If you want to buy 'pro' lenses and need/want flash/AF, etc., the Canon makes sense.

Of course you could ignore both of them and buy the Nikon instead, and get the good sensor with the 'pro' lenses and the AF/flash/etc. You'd still be missing the limited lenses, though.
Which puts all 3 at different sectors. Pentax needs to grow the line substantially to support this strategy. Photokina should be very interesting. I imagine any bigger chain they are in discussions with has already had some discussions of what is coming at the highest buying levels. Pretty much every big retailer is currently planning christmas and need to know what is coming
04-10-2012, 01:41 PM   #693
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My point is that If I'm going to drink the koolaid I want to know it will still taste as good down the road. I have yet to commit to Pentax as my choice for a DSLR. I see a lot of gossip about Nikon and Canon updating the D7000 and the 7d. Both good cameras with a wealth of lenses to choose from. I was just about to pull the trigger and buy Pentax but I think I will be better off waiting until the fall to see what develops. Most of all I will see how this whole Ricoh thing pans out.
04-10-2012, 01:59 PM   #694
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I really wish all these alarums and excursions with Pentax and its future would stop. It's doing my head in.

Since I first acquired a Pentax camera in 2007 or so, there have been two takeovers, a near-death balance sheet experience, sudden price hikes, sudden price falls, gyrations of alleged strategy and, where I live, sudden disappearances and reappearances across swathes of the retail trade. When Ricoh appeared, I was hoping they might introduce a long, long period of intense boredom and dullness so that things could calm down. No such luck, it appears. Is it a Japanese thing? That the way they do business appears so crazy and opaque to Westerners that eventually you just give up, stupefied, and they get their way.

My take FWIW: what we are hearing is the creaking sound of drawbridges going up around the only redoubt that has any prospect of paying Pentax's bills over the next 2-3 years: high-end APS-C DSLRs. They have to make this seem high-end, exclusive and high priced because they don't have products in any other market segment which are going to bring in enough to support the company. That will change if they make a determined push on other segments like FF and MILC but it will taken time to produce the volume and the turnover. The K-01 isn't going to bring in much more than a couple of rashers of bacon for them until they bring out an improved, restyled K-02 with a suite of dedicated XS lenses at m4/3 prices (i.e., one-third or half the new price of, say, a DA 21mm). I don't see Pentax reducing prices by much if anything on their mainstream APS-C stuff, and then only on the basis of special offers to sell off EOL and excess products. They just can't afford to. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they raised prices further over the next eighteen months.

Anyway, I have all the lenses I need - a complete set of DA Limiteds, one zoom and an smc-A 50mm f1.4 which is the equal of any DA Limited - bar one. LBA never ends, surely the first rule of all photography. I'm going to go off and take lots of pics over the summer. If come upgrade time in the autumn we are in the throes of some new crisis or other, well I guess I may admit defeat - that life with Pentax is just too exciting - and make a move. We'll see. Now I must post in another forum about the lens I'm after.

04-10-2012, 02:30 PM   #695
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Amazon.com: DA* 50-135 for $1300, down from $1600 (MSRP)
DA* 16-50: $1400, down from $1500 (MSRP).
DA* 60-250: still $2000
For now.
04-10-2012, 03:55 PM   #696
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I agree with everything except this.

When it comes to a salesman recommending a Pentax vs. a canon... Right now the 7D + 17-55 is ~$2600.

The K5 and the 16-50 is ~2600.

If the comission on the sale is much higher for the Pentax, the Pentax will get mentioned much more frequently than in the past... when it was never mentioned.
While partly true, commission sales are a minority of sales now. They do not swing a market.

Pentax was able to stay relevant in the face of its 5% market share and the vast Canikon ecosystems by at least having a minor price advantage without resort to the Sigma/Tamron/Tokina third party brands. Without a price advantage, and an under-the-hood product nearly identical to Nikon, Pentax volumes will drop. This is especially true in North America where price rules.

Many companies mess with the channel and then have a "Come to Jesus" moment. Ricoh is having theirs right now.
04-10-2012, 05:21 PM   #697
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I agree with everything except this.

When it comes to a salesman recommending a Pentax vs. a canon... Right now the 7D + 17-55 is ~$2600.

The K5 and the 16-50 is ~2600.

If the comission on the sale is much higher for the Pentax, the Pentax will get mentioned much more frequently than in the past... when it was never mentioned.
As part of sales and marketing organizations for more years than I'd like to think, I will vouch for the fact that "compensation drives behavior" - a refrain that's sung on a near-daily basis in those organizations.

Please note that "compensation" does not mean only "commission". Regardless of the compensation plan on the floor, the retailers will take their compensation, e.g., markup/margin, co-op advertising, rebates/refunds, etc., into account when allocating shelf space and staff attention, for starters. The influence will vary from retailer to retailer as there are other factors, of course. But compensation is a very big factor and undoubtedly will drive some behavior changes for most dealers.

Why is this hard to grasp?
04-10-2012, 05:27 PM   #698
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QuoteOriginally posted by glanglois Quote
As part of sales and marketing organizations for more years than I'd like to think, I will vouch for the fact that "compensation drives behavior" - a refrain that's sung on a near-daily basis in those organizations.

Please note that "compensation" does not mean only "commission". Regardless of the compensation plan on the floor, the retailers will take their compensation, e.g., markup/margin, co-op advertising, rebates/refunds, etc., into account when allocating shelf space and staff attention, for starters. The influence will vary from retailer to retailer as there are other factors, of course. But compensation is a very big factor and undoubtedly will drive some behavior changes for most dealers.

Why is this hard to grasp?
Not tough at all to grasp. However, basic economics says that when you increase prices sky high sales plummet on nearly any commodity short of absolute necessities. So, how are the retailers gaining greater compensation when their sales have, more than likely - and supported by the #s available from Amazon - tanked?

04-10-2012, 06:12 PM   #699
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I too would love to see some examples of rising prices causing increased demand on a product that already had weak demand? Maybe that worked a hundred years ago with snake oil salesmen, but I haven't seen it recently? Those lens prices are simply absurd, any way you cut it. I'm betting if those prices were present when the K5 came out, the number of K5 buyers would have decreased by the same number that D7000 buyers would have increased.
Is there any chance that with the tsunami and earthquake, April fools day came late in Japan this year? If not, Ricoh may end up being the biggest fool in Japan.
04-10-2012, 06:26 PM   #700
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
I too would love to see some examples of rising prices causing increased demand on a product that already had weak demand? Maybe that worked a hundred years ago with snake oil salesmen, but I haven't seen it recently? Those lens prices are simply absurd, any way you cut it. I'm betting if those prices were present when the K5 came out, the number of K5 buyers would have decreased by the same number that D7000 buyers would have increased.
Is there any chance that with the tsunami and earthquake, April fools day came late in Japan this year? If not, Ricoh may end up being the biggest fool in Japan.
Amazon is already apparently bucking the directive from PRIC. They have the K-5 body for $999 again. The absurd pricing continues on the two zoom DA* lenses but there are scattered discounts on other lenses already.
04-10-2012, 06:34 PM   #701
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I think Pentax should rerelease all limiteds with wr protection. Take advantage of their advantage. Then revamp the autofocus to dc motors. Just make it more competitive! TG I already own the dA 16-50 and 50-135 zooms. I love em but hate the ca. Still my go to lens in any enviroment!
04-10-2012, 07:35 PM   #702
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
I too would love to see some examples of rising prices causing increased demand on a product that already had weak demand? Maybe that worked a hundred years ago with snake oil salesmen, but I haven't seen it recently? Those lens prices are simply absurd, any way you cut it. I'm betting if those prices were present when the K5 came out, the number of K5 buyers would have decreased by the same number that D7000 buyers would have increased.
Is there any chance that with the tsunami and earthquake, April fools day came late in Japan this year? If not, Ricoh may end up being the biggest fool in Japan.
It's a few decades old, now, but I think I recall Seiko doing that. Same works, new case design, new agency, new campaign, raised prices, scratched K-Mart as a channel, focused on Macy's. Something along those lines.

That's not to say that Pentax will suddenly become a premium brand. I've no idea what will come from all of this. I do know, though, that the supply/demand curve is entirely too simplistic for a market like this. It ain't broccoli. (Insert here discussion of barrier to entry, cost of change, loyalty or lack thereof, brand identification, etc. I'm sure others can do that better than I. I just toil in the trenches.)
04-10-2012, 08:50 PM   #703
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QuoteOriginally posted by glanglois Quote
It's a few decades old, now, but I think I recall Seiko doing that. Same works, new case design, new agency, new campaign, raised prices, scratched K-Mart as a channel, focused on Macy's. Something along those lines.

That's not to say that Pentax will suddenly become a premium brand. I've no idea what will come from all of this. I do know, though, that the supply/demand curve is entirely too simplistic for a market like this. It ain't broccoli. (Insert here discussion of barrier to entry, cost of change, loyalty or lack thereof, brand identification, etc. I'm sure others can do that better than I. I just toil in the trenches.)
Seiko has tried repeatedly to change the perception of their brand, with no meaningful success. In their efforts to go upscale they have created several other brands, which are wholey owned by Seiko, in order to market and sell more expensive models. This practice is probably best exemplified by Toyota/Lexus. So, if Pentax wishes to be perceived as higher end history indicates that they will have to re brand, not simply increase retail costs of existing branded items.
04-10-2012, 10:02 PM   #704
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I read somewhere on the Internet today that Pentax plans to release more bodies that are priced much lower for mass appeal. Alright! Expensive lenses on cheap ass bodies - that will certainly fly around here, not that they would care much anyway . . .
04-11-2012, 01:13 AM   #705
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If you read it on the Internet, it's definitely true. And an unquestionable reason for more Pentax-bashing!
Pentax will have several cameras, at different price levels.
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