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04-12-2012, 06:05 AM   #781
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QuoteOriginally posted by Medium FormatPro Quote
Partially agreed; and quite the impressive reply, but...

Let me please go over the ole digital and even film debate. Anyone remebr the old Kodak Disc cameras? they were great for battery power and actually had an above average built in lens - that far surpassed the size of the film.

In relation to size of film, digital cameras are much the same. It won't be all that long into the future before the world eventually sees a 40mp++ sensor even in a Pentax slr (yet not medium format). But for digital - not only is it the mp in sensor quality (in addition to optics), but it is also very much the size of the sensor. Which is exactly why an existing Pentax 645D, Hasselblad 40mp, PhaseOne 40mp, etc... are so much better than any smaller 40mp sensor.

...And then there's optics. Sure I wouldn't mind carrying around a smaller (and lighter) lens; and btw some of the less expensive lens' are indeed smaller and lighter than the quality ones which are considerably larger and heavier.

So given any mobile phone size (or even tablet size such as a future iPad 8??) that the consumer will face a number of issues; sensor size, optic quality, etc... But please don't let these issues keep anyone from making a mobile Leica device

I agree, for enthusiasts and pros sensor size will make the difference, but we are but a small percentage of the market, that relies on the rest of the market for the volume that keeps prices low

I'd love to carry around a leica system. I know the long term costs are actually quite low, but it's the damn cost of entry that has stopped me

04-12-2012, 06:38 AM   #782
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QuoteOriginally posted by Medium FormatPro Quote
But please don't let these issues keep anyone from making a mobile Leica device
I already have one of those, it says M3 on it.
04-12-2012, 10:39 AM   #783
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
i agree some variant of an ILC system will be around for enthusiasts/pros/artists. Compared to current levels sales of DSLR though it willbe a smaller market. multi lens array cell phones will make apsc quality available in a cell phone in the not too distant future, that won't be good enough for enthusiast and pros and artists. We however represent a small percentage of the current slr market. a huge chunk of the current market is the people buying the entry level (be it Milc or slr) those people are buying because they can't get the image quality they want in a cell phone or P&S...

there is a good argument for this change coming again as tech improves (particularly given most people never print and just post pictures on the web.)
I like this quote from eddie, although i would comment that if the "multi-lens arrays will make apsc quality available" are that available for cell phones, why won't they be available for SLRs. I think the only thing holding back Pentax is the availability of FF sensors at a price they can work with. Course there are a few other things like developed marketing channels, etc

Since i was a kid, whenever our relatives from the midwest vist, they always bring a 4"x6" snapshots from the most recent fall, and comment about how wonderful the fall colors are back there and our family always does the drooling thing about how wonderful they are. Well this last summer, my uncle hauls out the traditional 4x6" snapshot and i congratulate him, then i haul out a 16"x24" canvas print (that looks gorgeous BTW) and he says - wait for it - "You must have a special camera" . No i said, its pretty much a run-of-the-mill, ordinary SLR.

Well, you all know what it takes to print at the larger sizes: tripod and/or fast shutter, good exposure, some processing, careful composing of the subject, etc. But how many people go to the trouble to do it, and do it well? - not too many.

I've recently printed a 24x36 canvas from a K5 picture and it came out sharp and attractive. Its been accepted in a nearby juried art show, and i've entered it and 2 others in another juried show. I'm convinced that attractive 60" prints are within reach for an aps sensor.

My point is: with aps dslrs at relatively low cost, what differentiates the results of the newbie with a hypothetical multi-array smart phone or for that matter a newbie with a Nikon D4 from an enthusiast/pro is still going to be the patience, knowledge and skill to take, process and print an attractive image.

Anyone with a brush, paints and paper can make a masterpiece, or a hammer and wood can build a house, but how many do that?

Last edited by philbaum; 04-12-2012 at 10:44 AM.
04-12-2012, 11:36 AM   #784
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I got an offer from a friend for a nice deal on a D7000. Given the BS from Richotax and PRICs lack of ability to respond to reasonable questions the offer was tempting. In reviewing the D7000, which is apparently the parallel in the Nikon lineup to the K-5, I went to Amazon to read the customer impressions. Wow. And I thought the back focus issue was a Pentax thing.....
Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Nikon D7000 16.2MP DX-Format CMOS Digital SLR with 18-105mm f/3.5-5.6 AF-S DX VR ED Nikkor Lens

04-12-2012, 11:57 AM   #785
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Thinking this over for a few days, it is only Pentax that is the loser in this crazy price raising scheme......I seldom buy Pentax lenses anyhow, they were already overpriced and in most reviews fail to beat the competition from Sigma and Tamron. Many of the best ranges are not even available with Pentax, and excluding the Ltds, you are not really gaining much if anything by being a "loyal Pentax fan". Where did that loyalty get you? When you add the much better warranties on other brands, and the rising standard of build, I can't find much reason to pay double or more for a lesser product, but maybe the Pentax on the barrel means that much to some?

My only fear is that as Pentax declines, and they will if they keep this sort of foolishness up, the third party makers will stop making Pentax mount lenses....we are already seeing some of that now. It always seem to me that just when you would think Pentax has all the problems they can handle, they throw out a new one to eclipse the others. Ricoh's next financial statement should be very interesting.
Regards!
04-12-2012, 12:28 PM   #786
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
Thinking this over for a few days, it is only Pentax that is the loser in this crazy price raising scheme......I seldom buy Pentax lenses anyhow, they were already overpriced and in most reviews fail to beat the competition from Sigma and Tamron. Many of the best ranges are not even available with Pentax, and excluding the Ltds, you are not really gaining much if anything by being a "loyal Pentax fan". Where did that loyalty get you? When you add the much better warranties on other brands, and the rising standard of build, I can't find much reason to pay double or more for a lesser product, but maybe the Pentax on the barrel means that much to some?

My only fear is that as Pentax declines, and they will if they keep this sort of foolishness up, the third party makers will stop making Pentax mount lenses....we are already seeing some of that now. It always seem to me that just when you would think Pentax has all the problems they can handle, they throw out a new one to eclipse the others. Ricoh's next financial statement should be very interesting.
Regards!

At first, I thought it might be a 'bait and switch' tactic when they lowered the price of the K-5 substantially, only to hike the prices of their lenses. That still might be the case, but I'm really not sure what they're planning to do. It shall be interesting to see how things play out.
04-12-2012, 12:39 PM   #787
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Personally I would think a low-body-price and high-lens price strategy would work out... except for Tamron and Sigma, as mentioned above.
04-12-2012, 01:23 PM   #788
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QuoteOriginally posted by oklahomakid93 Quote
At first, I thought it might be a 'bait and switch' tactic when they lowered the price of the K-5 substantially, only to hike the prices of their lenses. That still might be the case, but I'm really not sure what they're planning to do. It shall be interesting to see how things play out.
Bodies always fell a lot. Both K-r and K-5 are EOL.

Next bodies though may not get such nice deals...

04-12-2012, 01:29 PM   #789
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Bodies always fell a lot. Both K-r and K-5 are EOL.

Next bodies though may not get such nice deals...

Good point. Shall be interesting to say the least.
04-12-2012, 04:13 PM   #790
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Bodies always fell a lot. Both K-r and K-5 are EOL.

Next bodies though may not get such nice deals...
The K-r is discontinued in the U.S.A. None at BH, Adorama, Amazon.
04-12-2012, 04:15 PM   #791
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Personally I would think a low-body-price and high-lens price strategy would work out... except for Tamron and Sigma, as mentioned above.
The problem is that most people don't get into Pentax specifically to run Sigma or Tamron.
04-12-2012, 05:07 PM   #792
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
The problem is that most people don't get into Pentax specifically to run Sigma or Tamron.
I was working on the premise of lower body price and expensive lens price - and concluding that it would drive profits away from Pentax as more people would choose third party lenses.
04-12-2012, 06:02 PM   #793
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Market share with no revenues!

Technically, that's not a market because there is no exchange of value.

Instagram may get the "rights" to license your photo. A few billion of those per year and the fun will fade away.

Paying $1 billion for customers who would likely already be FB users is redundant. Many analysts are scratching their heads over this one...with good reason. It's $1 billion chasing a product with no cash flow.
Web 2.0 folk don't worry about little things like cash flow. Welcome to the 21st century.
04-12-2012, 06:11 PM   #794
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I was working on the premise of lower body price and expensive lens price - and concluding that it would drive profits away from Pentax as more people would choose third party lenses.
If the prices on the lenses are crack induced like the current $1495 for a DA* 16-50mm and $1595 for a DA* 50-135mm, it will hurt price regardless. I think the DA* 300/4 is at $1399. Then the insult of a 1 year warranty on top of that, they have a problem.
04-12-2012, 06:58 PM   #795
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
If the prices on the lenses are crack induced like the current $1495 for a DA* 16-50mm and $1595 for a DA* 50-135mm, it will hurt price regardless. I think the DA* 300/4 is at $1399. Then the insult of a 1 year warranty on top of that, they have a problem.
That cracked me up. No pun intended..
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