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03-30-2012, 05:25 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Oh dear, what did I do? (sitting in my car driving to Rome now )

Maybe, the thread is derailed enough to say this much though ... I proposed Pentax to create an own excellent online service along the lines of the Apple store. Not that people drive from Tallahassee to NYC.

(Although, I already did it the other way round and it was a nice trip )
I got so het up about capitalism I forgot to say that this is a GREAT idea - but has as small a likelihood of ever happening as the likelihood there would ever be a PentaxStore in my local mall..

03-30-2012, 05:41 PM   #77
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This sounds like a shot at the gray market

The big retailers already charge the higher price. This sounds like an attempt to clean-up the gray market importers who are selling unsupported items with no warranty that aren't intended for the national market they are being sold in. I recently bought a K-5 (yes - just before the price drop!) and paid $1350 to Adorama when I could have got it for under $1100 on Amazon - but the Amazon dealer was selling gray market with a third-party warranty. For my extra money I got a new K-5 with 0 shutter trips and a January 2012 build date, with the standard one year warranty and the additional two years warranty. It was worth the extra money to be sure I was getting a new, supported product.
03-30-2012, 11:34 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by ENicolas Quote
The big retailers already charge the higher price. This sounds like an attempt to clean-up the gray market importers who are selling unsupported items with no warranty that aren't intended for the national market they are being sold in. I recently bought a K-5 (yes - just before the price drop!) and paid $1350 to Adorama when I could have got it for under $1100 on Amazon - but the Amazon dealer was selling gray market with a third-party warranty. For my extra money I got a new K-5 with 0 shutter trips and a January 2012 build date, with the standard one year warranty and the additional two years warranty. It was worth the extra money to be sure I was getting a new, supported product.
How would you enforce any policy on the grey market sellers? The policy will only affect the official dealers not the grey market ones. I'm sure everyone who is complaining is talking about predicted price increase at official dealers.

Was it $1350 body only?

Look at the situation with lenses other people have mentioned. Some Pentax lenses are almost 50% cheaper at official dealers (not the grey market) (Amazon, BH, Adorama) than from the pentax store! What will happen to these prices? Note, there is already strong competition from 3rd party lens manufacturers even at the current "low" prices on Pentax lenses. What will happen next?

I guess Pentax counts on bringing their cameras to BM stores and it makes sense, there will be quite a few customers who will get Pentax just because it is being offered in all these ridiculous color options It is possible this alone will be enough to boost the Pentax brand. Is it good news for me personally? Probably not if prices on lenses will go up.

Anyway, I will be voting with my wallet. If the prices go up, no way I will be buying another Pentax product. Thankfully, there are a lot of 3rd party lenses and accessories available, often even better quality than Pentax own products.

On the other hand I'm interested in Pentax well being in long run. The only reason for that is I own several M42 lenses I like a lot and they work best with Pentax. If my K-5 dies I will be willing to get another M42 compatible body. So I'm interested in Pentax surviving for now, at least as long as I want to shoot digital with my M42 lenses.
03-31-2012, 12:05 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by vanyagor Quote
Anyway, I will be voting with my wallet. If the prices go up, no way I will be buying another Pentax product. Thankfully, there are a lot of 3rd party lenses and accessories available, often even better quality than Pentax own products.
That is how prining management works. Who is to say the "In the Cart" price won't be the full-time price.

Pentax is trying to set a more constant, reasonable price, that is closer to street price, and offer fewer Instant Rebates. Watch for the MSRP's to drop and the street prices to rise a bit, but not a lot - sort of like the $1,099 fixed price for the K-5.

03-31-2012, 01:19 AM   #80
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That was with the kit lens, and extra battery, and a few other little things, Vanyagor. Actually I think that Amazon price was for just the body - it was probably closer to $1200 with a lens. Still enough to notice the difference, but not enough to buy gray market.

I can't blame Ricoh for wanting to "upgrade" the perception of Pentax as a serious contender against Canon and Nikon, and getting them in the BM stores would be a part of that, but I wonder if price is the only consideration there. There's just as much discount Canon and Nikon stuff out there - even more. They are in the BM stores because they are the top sellers in the industry. And they are the top sellers in the industry because they have greater perceived value as "serious" cameras. If Ricoh wants the Pentax brand to compete there they have to win over the media, the customers, and the retailers, and being in the same price brackets isn't going to do that. And driving customers to the BM stores because there is no advantage to buying online won't do it. either. Removing the stigma of several bad past owners of the company will do it. That means new products and a solid commitment to quality and service to customers and retailers.

Right now the line of models is too limited - they need a FF model to compete with Canon and Nikon, and a low-end entry-level model to drive customers to the product line. I'm just talking DSLRs here. They need some serious mirrorless products that are more than just a cool color and a designer name - something to compete with Sony. The rugged sports cameras seem like a great line for them, but I don't know much about those. And they need to get their lens strategy under control - Pentax lenses are all over the map, and some are redundant.

But mainly they need to raise their image big-time, and that means advertising and doing some direct outreach to the customer base. We'll just have to wait and see how serious Ricoh is about returning Pentax to the big leagues. Back in the early 1980s when I was a film photography student there were three Big Names in cameras, like the Big Three car makers: Nikon, Canon, and Pentax. Now people see my K-5 and ask one of two questions: "Do they still make cameras?" or "Is that a new company?"
03-31-2012, 01:35 AM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
That is how prining management works. Who is to say the "In the Cart" price won't be the full-time price.

Pentax is trying to set a more constant, reasonable price, that is closer to street price, and offer fewer Instant Rebates. Watch for the MSRP's to drop and the street prices to rise a bit, but not a lot - sort of like the $1,099 fixed price for the K-5.
K-5 example is not such a good one imho as the existing price variations in K-5 price aren't that big across the stores. With lenses the situation is totally different though.
03-31-2012, 08:00 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by vanyagor Quote
K-5 example is not such a good one imho as the existing price variations in K-5 price aren't that big across the stores. With lenses the situation is totally different though.
The DA40/2.8 Ltd. list price a the Pentax Webstore is $499.95. Also at Creve Couer Camera here in St. Louis. At B&H the DA40 Limited today has no published price with the description. Put it in the cart (which is so annoying that B&H actually has a "Remove from Cart" button and "Confirm" button on the Pop-Up) - it is $339.95 right now. I bought one last month with my K-01 (I passed on the XS). That is totally irrational. I went to high school with the brother of one of the founders of Creve Couer Camera. I'd love to buy from them. But I'm just not going to pay $160 more plus sales tax at 8% (that's $40 more) for that lens. And let's not go down the sales tax path. If the prices were closer sales tax and insured shipping would be equivalent unless I'm buying thousands, which never happens.

Taking into account all the Instant Rebates and special promotions that Pentax paid the retailers to do, what has been the average net cash flow from sales of this lens? Of course we'll never know, but the cash flow volatility alone makes it harder to manage a company and a product.

If the DA40 had been $389.95 constantly since it was issued, and I knew it would stay that price no matter how long I waited, I would have bought one long, long ago. Instead I've missed 6 years of use waiting for a price. It's just stupid.

I'm not suggesting they never promote products. I'm suggesting that people are now in the habit of waiting for the promotional pricing on everything - the list price is not a good value and its not real. Make the full-time pricing a good value. Make the brand identity great ergo, great images, high quality construction, discerning and different and constant good value and your products will generate predictable cash flow. Predictability is good for Pentax, good for the B&M retailer and good for the end-consumer.

That's what Unilateral Pricing is all about - its about Pentax taking back some control of the price portion of its own brand image rather than letting Amazon dictate where and when its products are sold at the expense of the local camera store I want to support.

Last edited by monochrome; 03-31-2012 at 09:09 AM.
03-31-2012, 08:47 AM   #83
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monochrome, you trying to make me spend money. I'm looking at the DA-40 at $339.95. I also noticed the DA-40 XS lens at $249.95. Now I'm torn.

Getting back on topic, I think this is Ricoh's method for getting better control of the channel. For years now, I've seen Pentax products disappear off of retail shelves. I've been only able to buy them online. If this levels the playing field alittle and increases Pentax in my local space, I'm all for it. Looking at the 2 prices above, I'm wondering if we're going to be seeing Pentax return to a more value oriented direction by cutting out the promotions and having a constant price thats value oriented.

I think JC Penny recently went that direction. Cut out all the promotions and lower the price across the board to generate sales. I think the ad group called it "Everyday Pricing". Target has always offered this and was killing JC Penny. You no longer had to wait for a promotion. Just go in, find what you need and buy it. Simple.

For me personally, the stronger Pentax gets, the more I will buy. In the digital age, I've always been afraid to invest heavily in Pentax. Don't get me wrong, it's always been my favorite brand. I'm on my 7th Pentax camera now, (including film p&s film, film slr, digital p&s, dslr.) Only recently do I see signs of a plan, a plan to increase market share. Maybe I've been drinking the kool-aid around here, but I think I see positive signs.

2012 is going to be an interesting year.

03-31-2012, 08:49 AM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Oh dear, what did I do? (sitting in my car driving to Rome now )

Maybe, the thread is derailed enough to say this much though ... I proposed Pentax to create an own excellent online service along the lines of the Apple store. Not that people drive from Tallahassee to NYC.

(Although, I already did it the other way round and it was a nice trip )
just trying to give you an idea how close the nearest Pentax store is to me. Rome would only be have way in comparison. PentaxImaging has cost prohibitive pricing on their own stuff to the point it would make going with Nikon an economical alternative if PentaxImaging was my only choice.
03-31-2012, 08:55 AM   #85
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So it looks like the 16-50 will either come down in MSRP or up in street price. I've kinda wanted one in the past but really only for the WR.

The lenses I'm actually interested in, the 21, 31 and 77, don't have as much of a delta between list and street. Decisions, decisions. If there were silver ones available in the market I'd be purchasing today.
03-31-2012, 09:35 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by 7samurai Quote
monochrome, you trying to make me spend money. I'm looking at the DA-40 at $339.95. I also noticed the DA-40 XS lens at $249.95. Now I'm torn.
Don't forget the rounded blades on the XS. Its a question of Limited build versus rounder OOF highlights.
QuoteOriginally posted by 7samurai Quote
I think JC Penny recently went that direction. Cut out all the promotions and lower the price across the board to generate sales. I think the ad group called it "Everyday Pricing". Target has always offered this and was killing JC Penny. You no longer had to wait for a promotion. Just go in, find what you need and buy it. Simple.
I was actually thinking of Target versus Walmart or REI versus The Alpine Shop versus Campmor.com. I buy a lot of camping and hiking equipment.

Walmart is an awful, pushy, dirty, risky experience. We have an in-store Police substation in our Walmart - really!!I I never go there for anything.

Target is clean, bright, friendly and the shelves are stocked with a limited, basic line of gear. Whenever I can I shop at Target.

REI is clean, bright, the staff is helpful, the prices are good and they have the full line of gear. Whenever I need to, like for boots, I shop at REI and pay 35% more than the minimum for the fitting service and the open discussion of brand strengths and weaknesses compared to my outdoor goals.

Campmor.com is like B&H - great value, absolutely everything you need, but online only (except Manhattan). Sometimes the price is too good not to buy from them (a tent is a tent).

The Alpine Shop is like an arrogant camera store. They always try to upsell me, tell me I don't know what I need, push a certain brand over the one I want and charge ridiculously high prices. I actually don't feel at all bad about going there to look at a $350 outfitter backpack, buying a pair of socks and ordering the backpack from Campmor. Because I've been an active hiker/camper since my teens I am well informed about the technical aspects of gear, the values, the relative merits of brands and I know why I want what I want. I have no earthly idea how Pentax could get traction in that kind of environment.

Hopefully Pentax wants to be in the analogs to Target and REI and try not to let Campmor dominate their strategy.

Last edited by monochrome; 03-31-2012 at 09:43 AM.
03-31-2012, 09:52 AM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
just trying to give you an idea how close the nearest Pentax store is to me.
I understood it.

It is a bit hard to believe for me though. In my city of Munich, at the big central place (photo attached), a new photo store opened last month (photo attached, Apple Store is just around the corner in second line ). It displays a 645D or DA*60-250 in the main window facing the city's old (called "New") City Hall and inside, they feature Canon, Nikon and Pentax dSLRs and sports optics, with Pentax occupying about 70% of shelf space.

This increases the number of stores within walking distance from my home which carry Pentax dSLRs from 5 to 6. Two of them have a 645D on display.

Maybe, the new policy to protect B&M stores in the US comes a bit late ...

Last edited by falconeye; 06-23-2012 at 03:12 AM.
03-31-2012, 09:58 AM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
It is a bit hard to believe for me though.
A zip code for Tallahassee is 32302. Find a PENTAX Retailer

I'm guessing there's pentax dealers in Atlanta/Miami/New Orleans/etc. So it's probably only 300-500 kilometers to a Fry's, which usually will have a k-r with a kit lens. So if you want to buy that, you're good.
03-31-2012, 10:11 AM   #89
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The only Pentax retailer in New York outside of NYC is in Buffalo. That's only 220 kilometers and $6.00 in tolls one way.
03-31-2012, 11:34 AM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I understood it.

It is a bit hard to believe for me though. In my city of Munich, at the big central place (photo attached), a new photo store opened last month (photo attached, Apple Store is just around the corner in second line ). It displays a 645D or DA*60-250 in the main window facing the city's old (called "New") City Hall and inside, they feature Canon, Nikon and Pentax dSLRs and sports optics, with Pentax occupying about 70% of shelf space.

This increases the number of stores within walking distance from my home which carry Pentax dSLRs from 5 to 6. Two of them have a 645D on display.

Maybe, the new policy to protect B&M stores in the US comes a bit late ...
Falk, unless you have been to the United States, and even then unless you have ventured outside of the Eastern Seaboard, you cannot imagine how thin the population density is here. There isn't a store of any kind to buy anything within walking distance of most Americans who live between the two mountain ranges. That's 52% of the population.

My daughter lives in New York City - Manhattan. She doesn't have a car. Sure, she can walk to just about anything, or take a cab or train, or even rent a City Car hourly. I can walk to a Walgreens or a restaurant, but that's all. Not a grocery store or garment store - and I live close-in. I'm urban, not suburban or ex-urban.

There are 2.5MM people living in the St. Louis, Missouri metropolitan area. It is 120 miles east to west and 80 north to south. In that entire area there are 6 stores that stock Pentax cameras out of 19 stores altogether. And none has a K-5 in stock.

Just to test the whole idea of local shopping I went out this morning to look for a small bag for my K-01. Took it with me to fit it. They laughed - literally LAUGHED - the floor salesman who approached literally called over to the other two, helping customers at the counter, "Hey, this guy has that Pentax K-Oh-One --- hah hah hah hah." The customers actually giggled, too.

That's why we shop online.
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