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01-11-2008, 01:33 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by blende8 Quote
APS-H??????
What a bu||sh|t!
This makes no sense at all.

If these features are true, this really drives me away from this "camera", ehh, multimedia toy.
I will look at it, but will probably wait for the next serious camera.
What they can't leave out is much faster, actual predictive/tracking autofocus at D300 (or similar) level; much better low light AF; more controllable, feature-rich flash abilities; competing quality high ISO 3200-6400 low noise - especially chroma noise; and better jpeg processing - as they were the imperatives for the update of the K10D.

Instead, what we get is a wider picture with 12MP density (14MP only due to "widescreen") some video gimmickry, and some live-view variations without a flip-out screen. (Head still on the floor for ground level macro).

Yup. Groundbreaking.

While live histogram is great and will be welcomed, also, things like customizable true mirror lock-up, resettable AF calibration menu for various lenses (INCLUDING third party), higher flash sync speed, etc. should also be part of the deal.

Good thing Ben took that NDA so seriously. We might've had some suggestions for Pentax if he didn't.


Last edited by mutley; 01-11-2008 at 01:43 AM.
01-11-2008, 01:36 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by blende8 Quote
APS-H??????
What a bu||sh|t!
This makes no sense at all.
Actually, for me, it is this type of reaction which makes no sense at all.

If Pentax goes this route while sacrificing image quality and resolution, I would agree with you. But in this case, nothing is lost. You have the exact same pixel density and pixel count in 3:2 mode as D300.

In addition, it has a very useful reduction in crop factor horizontally for wide angle user. The FOV crop horizontally is now 1.29 instead of 1.5. Your 21mm pancake would now be 27mm equivalent instead of 31.mm.

And as I said before, you can totally ignore the video application if you don't like it. But what you have gained is considerable in their video implementation - for example, Live View overlay in viewfinder (live histogram), possibly electronic shutters (higher flash sync), higher frame rate in live view... etc.

QuoteQuote:
If these features are true, this really drives me away from this "camera", ehh, multimedia toy.
Why is video mode automatically associated with "toy"? What the difference between a camera shooting at 30fps and a camcorder? Eventually, the two device would merge. Do you know where the 35mm film come from? Yes from the film used in motion picture!
01-11-2008, 01:42 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
Much faster, actual predictive/tracking autofocus at D300 (or similar) level; much better low light AF; more controllable, feature-rich flash abilities; competing quality high ISO 3200-6400 low noise - especially chroma noise; and better jpeg processing were the imperatives for the update of the K10D.
Instead, what we get is a wider picture with 12MP density (14MP only due to "widescreen") some video gimmickry, and some live-view variations without a flip-out screen. (Head still on the floor for ground level macro).
Yup. Groundbreaking.

So now you are writing off the camera without having seen the full specs, let alone anyone using it? And you are so sure that the noise level and jpg won't match? Geez!

I knew it all along, no matter what Pentax produces, you will continue to be extremely unhappy with it just like your K10D.

Seriously, you should consider switching to Nikon's D300. We should all be happy using our gear. If it is causing you so much grief, there is really no point sticking around, is there?

To me, this is truly ground breaking (if it turns out to be true). And it will cause A LOT of buzz around camera circles. On the other hand, if K20D matches D300's AF etc feature by feature, NO ONE would notice, everyone would just dismiss it as a D300 clone.

16:9 sensor should be welcome by most wide angle users, and I think I would like it too. I may just as well consider adding the 21mm to my collection now that the horizontal crop is a more useful 27mm equivalent.
01-11-2008, 01:46 AM   #19
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mutley: Very strange info.

None or almost none is coming close to truth. The sensor size will be the same like k10. What wide screen what viewfinder inbuilt displays?????????????

Is this a wish list or the Santa letter for the next Christmas?

01-11-2008, 01:52 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
What they can't leave out is much faster, actual predictive/tracking autofocus at D300 (or similar) level; much better low light AF; more controllable, feature-rich flash abilities; competing quality high ISO 3200-6400 low noise - especially chroma noise; and better jpeg processing - as they were the imperatives for the update of the K10D.

Instead, what we get is a wider picture with 12MP density (14MP only due to "widescreen") some video gimmickry, and some live-view variations without a flip-out screen. (Head still on the floor for ground level macro).

Yup. Groundbreaking.

While live histogram is great and will be welcomed, also, things like customizable true mirror lock-up, resettable AF calibration menu for various lenses (INCLUDING third party), higher flash sync speed, etc. should also be part of the deal.

Good thing Ben took that NDA so seriously. We might've had some suggestions for Pentax if he didn't.
I think you should revise your mathematics. 12 MPix on an APS-C is a pixel density that would yield almost 19MP on an APS-H size wafer according to this link unless Pentax is redefining APS-H. The pixel density for mid 14Mpix on APS-H is almost exactly that of our infamous 10MP K10D. Add to that the fact that it is now CMOS and you should get a nice improvement over the K10D if the rumours of this larger sensor are true.
01-11-2008, 01:53 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Actually, for me, it is this type of reaction which makes no sense at all.

If Pentax goes this route while sacrificing image quality and resolution, I would agree with you. But in this case, nothing is lost. You have the exact same pixel density and pixel count in 3:2 mode as D300.

In addition, it has a very useful reduction in crop factor horizontally for wide angle user. The FOV crop horizontally is now 1.29 instead of 1.5. Your 21mm pancake would now be 27mm equivalent instead of 31.mm.

And as I said before, you can totally ignore the video application if you don't like it. But what you have gained is considerable in their video implementation - for example, Live View overlay in viewfinder (live histogram), possibly electronic shutters (higher flash sync), higher frame rate in live view... etc.



Why is video mode automatically associated with "toy"? What the difference between a camera shooting at 30fps and a camcorder? Eventually, the two device would merge. Do you know where the 35mm film come from? Yes from the film used in motion picture!
Sure, great features. I will love APS-H for landscapes and street-photo ( wide ) I think TV pictures are "normally" - not very strange today. You had to see the new revolution - Canikon will be not really happy
01-11-2008, 01:54 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
So now you are writing off the camera without having seen the full specs, let alone anyone using it? And you are so sure that the noise level and jpg won't match? Geez!

I knew it all along, no matter what Pentax produces, you will continue to be extremely unhappy with it just like your K10D.

Seriously, you should consider switching to Nikon's D300. We should all be happy using our gear. If it is causing you so much grief, there is really no point sticking around, is there?

To me, this is truly ground breaking (if it turns out to be true). And it will cause A LOT of buzz around camera circles. On the other hand, if K20D matches D300's AF etc feature by feature, NO ONE would notice, everyone would just dismiss it as a D300 clone.

16:9 sensor should be welcome by most wide angle users, and I think I would like it too. I may just as well consider adding the 21mm to my collection now that the horizontal crop is a more useful 27mm equivalent.
You got me convinced. Even if none of this holds true, I am glad to be a Pentaxian. When I first started getting into photography about a year and half ago I started with an FZ50 because I didn't think I could handle a DSLR. I spent the next 6 months deciding between Nikon, Sony, and Pentax. I decided on Pentax for two reasons. The first is innovation. They are unafraid to reinvent the wheel and see where others have gone wrong. Secondly, keeping the consumer in mind. Pentax realizes that they don't make cameras for the soccer mom or the sports photo pro, they make cameras for the die hard amateur/semi-pro. That person who yearns to be out in the freezing cold or blazing sun to see how they can bend light to their will. I like vision, its rare in the electronics arena. Thats why Steve Jobs is a genius among giants. If Pentax has a revolutionary vision, I am willing to give it a go.
01-11-2008, 01:57 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve-O Quote
I think you should revise your mathematics. 12 MPix on an APS-C is a pixel density that would yield almost 19MP on an APS-H size wafer according to this link unless Pentax is redefining APS-H. The pixel density for mid 14Mpix on APS-H is almost exactly that of our infamous 10MP K10D. Add to that the fact that it is now CMOS and you should get a nice improvement over the K10D if the rumours of this larger sensor are true.
OK, I see that the error is that it is not actually APS-H, but new format 16:9 APS-C.


Last edited by mutley; 01-11-2008 at 02:09 AM.
01-11-2008, 02:00 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve-O Quote
I think you should revise your mathematics. 12 MPix on an APS-C is a pixel density that would yield almost 19MP on an APS-H size wafer
I never said it was a APS-H. It is NOT a APS-H. The APS-H in the wiki link is a 3:2 sensor.
It is a 16:9 DSLR sensor, something never done before. It is APS-C stretched horizontally for a 16:9 ratio. The area increase is about 1.19x. So a 12MP APS-C sensor with added width on both side to make it 16:9 means approx 14MP with the same pixel density.
01-11-2008, 02:04 AM   #25
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For a circular lens a 2:1 sensor makes no sense at all.
It is wasting valuable space.

Except for some landscape work perhaps, nobody needs 2:1 photos.
We will all be cropping like mad to get the 3:2 format we are used to.
The same applies to portrait. Who needs a 2:1 portrait format?

QuoteQuote:
Why is video mode automatically associated with "toy"?
It is the combination.
Perhaps we see here a paradigm change, that video and photography merge.
But I don't like it.
I know, the mass market will love it though.

I cannot help, but to me, personally. this looks like a toy, not like a serious camera.

Let's hope these rumors are wrong!
01-11-2008, 02:06 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
On the other hand, if K20D matches D300's AF etc feature by feature, NO ONE would notice, everyone would just dismiss it as a D300 clone.
This level of autofocus performance is what the industry can produce. The K20D matching it is just matching the status quo, and it should be a given. The groundbreaking stuff, of course, is the extra innovation "Pentaxians" expect in buying a Pentax, not a Nikon. But, not at the expense of the performance standards that have already been accomplished in this price range (subtracting name recognition price premiums).
01-11-2008, 02:10 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
This level of autofocus performance is what the industry can produce. The K20D matching it is just matching the status quo, and it should be a given.
It is not. K20D should be MUCH cheaper than D300. So don't expect D300 performance in terms of FPS and AF capabilities. If you like D300, then buy a D300, that's that. K20D like K10D is not a D200 / D300 substitute or direct competitor.
01-11-2008, 02:11 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by blende8 Quote
For a circular lens a 2:1 sensor makes no sense at all.
It is wasting valuable space.
Is it really? If it still is just bigger than the sensor of K10d, then it's a gain, not a waste. I have no idea if this rumour is close to the truth, but if something like this is applicable, then I guess we will have an aspect selector on camera and possibly a crop indicator in the viewfinder (another possible use except live histograms).

What about a circular sensor ???
01-11-2008, 02:14 AM   #29
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Completely Disagree with you

QuoteOriginally posted by blende8 Quote
For a circular lens a 2:1 sensor makes no sense at all.
It is wasting valuable space.

Except for some landscape work perhaps, nobody needs 2:1 photos.
We will all be cropping like mad to get the 3:2 format we are used to.
The same applies to portrait. Who needs a 2:1 portrait format?


It is the combination.
Perhaps we see here a paradigm change, that video and photography merge.
But I don't like it.
I know, the mass market will love it though.

I cannot help, but to me, personally. this looks like a toy, not like a serious camera.

Let's hope these rumors are wrong!
I was watching a photojournalism conference put on by AP and they discussed the idea of digital video quality becoming so good that it becoming possible to cut photos out of and use the from video. It was generally dismissed because video and still frame photographers use different approaches to how they shoot. However, there may be a day when a majority of the work will be done on the computer than out taking the photograph because of the ability to capture 100% of the information.
01-11-2008, 02:16 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by blende8 Quote
For a circular lens a 2:1 sensor makes no sense at all.
It should be 16:9, I believe, not 2:1.

QuoteQuote:
It is wasting valuable space.
Well, in that case, square sensor makes use of most space, right? But it won't work, general customers won't like square sensor. It increases the horizontal crops even further.

And why 16:9 does not make sense? It is not wasting space at all. It is an INCREASE in space over APC-C! Shouldn't any increase in sensor size be welcome?

QuoteQuote:
We will all be cropping like mad to get the 3:2 format we are used to.
I am sure there is a 3:2 12MP mode. There you go, you can use it like any other 12MP camera.

QuoteQuote:
The same applies to portrait. Who needs a 2:1 portrait format?
How about group portraits? 16:9 is very nice for group portraits.

QuoteQuote:
I cannot help, but to me, personally. this looks like a toy, not like a serious camera.
Open you mind, and you will see many good things live view, live histogram, electronic shutters... would bring even if you never touch the video mode.
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