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04-14-2012, 07:39 PM   #241
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
If those Dept Heads you mentioned fire a tenure professor other than for wrong doing, breaking the law or ethics violations, they will be "owned" in a wrongful dismissal law suite. I know dept heads and deans that still act like faculty. However, more and more many of them are just administrators. The U.C. system is one of the exceptions, but then they have elected dept chairs and deans.
Two of them are Tenured University Faculty and one of the two is the Department Chair, therefore the Faculty Senate approved the rule. (Not some Christian armpit school either - top 25 by most rankings). You might think this is contrary to freedom, and it may be, but every large entity has some sort of rule and every large entity is regularly looking over your shoulder and using Google search crawlers on your name. The first thing new legal department hires do is audit those reports.

They feel there is too much risk on the intetnet - the Ned Thread is just what they are afraid of.


Last edited by monochrome; 04-14-2012 at 07:45 PM.
04-14-2012, 07:44 PM   #242
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Two of them are Tenured University Faculty and one of the two is the Department Chair, therefore the Faculty Senate approved the rule. (Not some Christian armpit school either - top 25 by most rankings). You might think this is contrary to freedom, and it may be, but every large entity has some sort of rule and every large entity is regularly looking over your shoulder and using Google search cralers on your name.

They feel there is too much risk on the intetnet - the Ned Thread is just what they are afraid of.
Having sat on the faculty senate at major universities, I can tell you that to be a chair or dept head, they are at least an associate prof which means they have tenure. However, I still maintain they told you things from the perspective of an administrator. I am not saying that one should throw common sense out the door with blogs etc. What I am saying is they can't fire anyone as long as they don't violate the law, ethics, or wrong doing. I am not talking about libel, slander or defamation. I am talking about academic freedom, you know, the thing that twists Rush Limbaugh's panties up in a bunch.

Edit: Private companies are a different ball of wax because of trade secretes etc.
04-14-2012, 07:51 PM   #243
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Having sat on the faculty senate at major universities, I can tell you that to be a chair or dept head, they are at least an associate prof which means they have tenure. However, I still maintain they told you things from the perspective of an administrator. I am not saying that one should throw common since out the door with blogs etc. What I am saying is they can't fire anyone as long as they don't violate the law, ethics, or wrong doing.
Note that there are various limitation rules in my posts - some entities are more liberal than others. Every University faculty member is subject to personal relationship rules that now extend to social networking contacts. I can tell you that you are incorrect as to the current state of fear and the current state of policy at large entities. I'm not trolling for an argument, Blue. I agree with you that this is restraint of free expression.

My point is to support my case that Ned shouldn't be blogging about Pentax.
04-14-2012, 07:51 PM   #244
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
There are various sets of rules and regs - the point being each of us is subject to review of our personal internet postings and subject to employment action for violating a set of reules that were imposed on us after-the-fact of hire.

Some of the group can have a personal blog identifiable by name but cannot post anything at all about the employer or industry. Some cannot have a personal blog identifiable by name, but can blog anonymously (but are counseled not to blog about employer). One is subject to continual review of social networking sites. One is regulated and the government would require the ability to subpoena every blog post and email of every employee at will - so that persona may not have any personally identifiable blogs at all, and may not list the employer or discuss the company or industry on Facebook or Linked-In. One of us has personal accounts at social network sites that are rubber stamps of corporate-generated posts. One of us is subject to review of friends on social network sites and subject to a union-endorsed limitation of who such friends may / may NOT be and what may / may NOT be posted - and there may be no personal messages (no DM) between the account owner and certain classes of members of the social network site - in accordance with a state law. Most people in that industry statewide simply canceled their social network accounts rather than comply since anonymous social network accounts aren't permitted either and they didn't want the hassle of compliance.

Each of us has a supervisory or executive role in our entity and each has a public relations department at our entity.

All of us are subject to immediate, unconditional dismissal with prejudice (loss of conditional deferred benefits, etc.) for violations of these rules.

The above is rife with privacy issues - the state law you reference notwithstanding. And I was just about to say something like:
QuoteQuote:
In twenty years some Supreme Court case may be voted in favor of us, but none of us is willing to take the risk to make effing blog posts - and we'll all be dead before it is decided anyway.
We can bet that there will be statutes in place protecting privacy and even extending basic free speech legal protections into the public-private overlap that sort of falls into a grey area now - grey areas companies are willing to step into and enact their own de facto law. That's not gonna stand if it ever gets pushed, and I suspect it will, and not twenty years from now. People are going to start getting canned for incredibly silly reasons, and when that starts happening we'll see the legal lines get firmed up, and moved pretty far away from what you describe above.

I think the problem here is that social networking, blogging, etc is really still incredibly new, and these issues have barely been tested in court yet, so the companies/employers are free to take an overly aggressive stand.

But I hear what you say - until there is real protection, it's just personally not worth it right now to take the risk.


QuoteQuote:
In fact, given that I buy and sell here and PM individuals with my personal info to do that, I'm probably in violation of my employer's policy if the wanted to make an issue of it.
A great example of how the policy as stated allows an over-the-top interpretation and a completely inappropriate and damaging response.

.


Last edited by jsherman999; 04-14-2012 at 08:05 PM.
04-14-2012, 07:56 PM   #245
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
A great example of how the policy as stated allows an over-the-top interpretation and a completely inappropriate and damaging response.
Yep. I agree.

Of course I probably violate some law or regulation every hour of every day without knowing it - and they could do something if they ever decided to make an issue of it.
04-14-2012, 08:00 PM   #246
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Note that there are various limitation rules in my posts - some entities are more liberal than others. Every University faculty member is subject to personal relationship rules that now extend to social networking contacts. I can tell you that you are incorrect as to the current state of fear and the current state of policy at large entities. I'm not trolling for an argument, Blue. I agree with you that this is restraint of free expression.

My point is to support my case that Ned shouldn't be blogging about Pentax.
It depends on what your definition of personal relationship rules are. I am not talking about posting personal information about 1 of my graduate students. I am talking about posting my opinion about something scientific, a macro-photography or hot button issues. Dept heads Deans, and University Presidents come and go.
04-14-2012, 08:12 PM   #247
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At dinner last night I sat across from a Department Chair and next to a (September 2012) Graduate Student. Both use the same surname I do.

The gray area is whether your opinion of something scientific is given credibility by your association with the entity. They can't and won't attempt to control it, but they're worried about it. Supervisors are given jawbone pressure to restrain themselves because they are supervisors.

Private companies seem to feel more entitled to control - perhaps because they think they have reputation and liability risks.

Last edited by monochrome; 04-14-2012 at 08:17 PM.
04-14-2012, 08:17 PM   #248
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
At dinner last night I sat across from a Department Chair and next to a (September 2012) Graduate Student. Both use the same surname I do.
I can tell you now that graduate students are far more active on face book than faculty are. My previous dean was fairly active and still is even though he moved away and is a Provost at his new digs and is in fact still on my friends list. My interim dean can barely check his email. However, it isn't necessarily age related. It is more about managerial style.

04-14-2012, 08:21 PM   #249
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
I can tell you now that graduate students are far more active on face book than faculty are. My previous dean was fairly active and still is even though he moved away and is a Provost at his new digs. My interim dean can barely check his email. However, it isn't necessarily age related. It is more about managerial style.
Personal relationships with direct-contact students, because a faculty member is in a position of authority, are discouraged, are they not? Do you think it is reasonable to have a policy prohibiting Direct Messaging or Facebook Messaging a direct-contact student? Might that be an extension of a personal relationship policy?
04-14-2012, 08:27 PM   #250
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Personal relationships with direct-contact students, because a faculty member is in a position of authority, are discouraged, are they not? Do you think it is reasonable to have a policy prohibiting Direct Messaging or Facebook Messaging a direct-contact student? Might that be an extension of a personal relationship policy?
No it is not a violation. It is a violation to force them to "friend" anyone. Other than just really basic communication, I rarely use the messenger feature because it is subject to security risks. I use email for official class and research matters. There are guide lines in place to deal with student records.
04-14-2012, 08:59 PM   #251
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Wow, the world Monochrome describes sounds like something out of the Soviet system. Fear dominates and you never know who you can trust. Does tenure mean nothing any longer?
04-14-2012, 09:09 PM   #252
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
Wow, the world Monochrome describes sounds like something out of the Soviet system. Fear dominates and you never know who you can trust. Does tenure mean nothing any longer?
You do understand that every respondent I cited is subject to some explicit law, some Federal regulatory body's explicit rule-making or some experience with an explicit Court-adjudicated legal settlement, right?

This isn't in China, or the Soviet Union in 1980 - it is in America and it is today and it is very, very real.
04-14-2012, 09:25 PM   #253
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New k5 buyer shafted...

Just bought K5 with hopes of good small prime and 60-250 purchase...now considering sending back. $2,000.00? Really? Feel I've been ambushed...should have went with Nikon or Cannon. And I don't give a flip about market corrections and welcome to the "real world" commentary. The price increases were severe at any consideration, and it's certainly difficult for a new Pentax user to develop loyalty when he's shafted out of the gate. Bet that recent K5 price reduction a couple of weeks back wasn't related at all to this lens price jack. Paranoia must be getting the better of me.
04-14-2012, 11:32 PM - 1 Like   #254
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tripbrad Quote
Just bought K5 with hopes of good small prime and 60-250 purchase...now considering sending back. $2,000.00? Really? Feel I've been ambushed...should have went with Nikon or Cannon. And I don't give a flip about market corrections and welcome to the "real world" commentary. The price increases were severe at any consideration, and it's certainly difficult for a new Pentax user to develop loyalty when he's shafted out of the gate. Bet that recent K5 price reduction a couple of weeks back wasn't related at all to this lens price jack. Paranoia must be getting the better of me.
The K-5 is an excellent camera and does things differently unlike the other guys, namely that in body stabilization which means any lens you put on the camera will have image stabilization. This means higher quality lenses, smaller lenses, and increased reliability since it is one less thing to break down on you. The biggest advantage is that old film lenses which are amazing for their aesthetic qualities and their immense value become even better than they were before.

The reason I am bringing this up because at my photography school, there is a student who shoots with the K-x and has the old school screw mount and M42 lenses and he has some of the best pictures in class.
04-14-2012, 11:39 PM   #255
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kryscendo Quote
The K-5 is an excellent camera and does things differently unlike the other guys, namely that in body stabilization which means any lens you put on the camera will have image stabilization.
That used to mean 'equivalent' lenses were cheaper from Pentax than from other companies who had to put IS in lenses.
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