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04-18-2012, 02:03 AM   #361
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Merci ...

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Well, Ned quoting jatrax (from this very forum) was interesting, and a sign he does watch it.
...
Did you saw anything similar in France?

Re-Bonjour Kunzite,

Thanks for the "id" for the user that was quoted by Ned ... and I would suggest that the quote which was the very first part of jatrax's post was slightly taken out of context ... a little bit of opportunistic "pick and choose" IMHO.

As for France, I have not seen any price increases across the board for Pentax, but then again I have a lot of other things to do ... still being relatively vigilant here with the "free" time available ...

My point was that if the UK sees a similar price increase, then the European continent won't be far behind ... on verra!

Salut, John le Frog

04-18-2012, 02:07 AM   #362
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Well, I only really care about what's happening in Europe.
Same here
04-18-2012, 02:24 AM   #363
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I would not have played the "we have not 'raised' the prices on any lenses" card. At the end of the day what is the difference between
"We have made it more expensive for you to buy lenses (in some cases almost doubled the price)"
vs
"We have raised the prices on lenses"?
Essentially, there is no difference and a customer does not care where the additional $700+ for a 50-135mm go.

If anything, a loyal Pentaxian would appreciate if extra money went to Pentax, rather than dealers. So I do not get how "We did not raise lens prices" holds up to sweeten the deal in any way.

I wonder in what way the user comment Ned quoted is just "pretty accurate". Maybe Pentax did not raise lens prices in the sense that they didn't raise the MSRP but potentially they could be raising the price they sell the lenses to retailers. Or in what other way could the quoted comment just "pretty accurate" rather than "spot on"?

Ned's message unfortunately does not clarify the motivation for making it more expensive for US customers to buy Pentax glass. Pentax USA has been operating with a different scheme for years and all the good reasons provided now (support B&M stores, etc) were applicable all along. So why the change? Did Pentax USA not want to "expand" before? I can only speculate that perhaps the "major National account" deal Ned refers to was only possible by Pentax committing to reign in online dealers.

Another unanswered question is how Pentax imagines to compete against Canikon with these prices. Isn't there a big chance that we may just see Pentax lenses at B&M stores but that they won't sell because they are just not competitive in terms of value for money (SDM issues + 1 year warranty for over double the price of Canon L glass?!?)?

Given that online retailers such as Adorama have generous return conditions and hence allow you to play with a camera much more extensively than you could ever in a store, I don't see the "touch and test the product" argument. I can see that more Pentax presence in B&M stores may increase Pentax exposure to a wider audience, but it does not appear to be true that anyone who is already interested in a Pentax product now has a better chance of "touch[ing] and test[ing] the product".

Rebate promises sound nice, but overall I'm concerned that many potential future Pentaxians will evaluate Pentax products on Adorama prices and not on occasional rebate prices.

In summary, Ned's message clarifies that the driving motivation for the unilateral pricing strategy is to strengthen Pentax presence in B&M stores, but AFAIC it leaves more question open than it answers.

Last edited by Class A; 04-18-2012 at 03:04 AM.
04-18-2012, 02:40 AM   #364
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He say they have experimented with the rebate program and such so he makes it at least apear this was already in the pipeline a bit longer then a few months.

04-18-2012, 03:46 AM   #365
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FYI - An example of B&M margins ...

Since Ned raised the issue of B&M margins via his quotation of the PF member in another thread, here is some interesting information ...

It seems that the margins in this example range from 37% for a DA 50-200 WR to 69% for a FA 50mm f2.8 Macro ...
Attached Images
 
04-18-2012, 04:27 AM   #366
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I would not have played the "we have not 'raised' the prices on any lenses" card. At the end of the day what is the difference between
"We have made it more expensive for you to buy lenses (in some cases almost doubled the price)"
vs
"We have raised the prices on lenses"?
Essentially, there is no difference and a customer does not care where the additional $700+ for a 50-135mm go.

If anything, a loyal Pentaxian would appreciate if extra money went to Pentax, rather than dealers. So I do not get how "We did not raise lens prices" holds up to sweeten the deal in any way.

I wonder in what way the user comment Ned quoted is just "pretty accurate". Maybe Pentax did not raise lens prices in the sense that they didn't raise the MSRP but potentially they could be raising the price they sell the lenses to retailers. Or in what other way could the quoted comment just "pretty accurate" rather than "spot on"?

Ned's message unfortunately does not clarify the motivation for making it more expensive for US customers to buy Pentax glass. Pentax USA has been operating with a different scheme for years and all the good reasons provided now (support B&M stores, etc) were applicable all along. So why the change? Did Pentax USA not want to "expand" before? I can only speculate that perhaps the "major National account" deal Ned refers to was only possible by Pentax committing to reign in online dealers.

Another unanswered question is how Pentax imagines to compete against Canikon with these prices. Isn't there a big chance that we may just see Pentax lenses at B&M stores but that they won't sell because they are just not competitive in terms of value for money (SDM issues + 1 year warranty for over double the price of Canon L glass?!?)?

Given that online retailers such as Adorama have generous return conditions and hence allow you to play with a camera much more extensively than you could ever in a store, I don't see the "touch and test the product" argument. I can see that more Pentax presence in B&M stores may increase Pentax exposure to a wider audience, but it does not appear to be true that anyone who is already interested in a Pentax product now has a better chance of "touch[ing] and test[ing] the product".

Rebate promises sound nice, but overall I'm concerned that many potential future Pentaxians will evaluate Pentax products on Adorama prices and not on occasional rebate prices.

In summary, Ned's message clarifies that the driving motivation for the unilateral pricing strategy is to strengthen Pentax presence in B&M stores, but AFAIC it leaves more question open than it answers.
Very well said Sir. All the consumer sees is that the lenses cost more with zero added value.
04-18-2012, 04:40 AM   #367
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Dear Ned,

Here is how this will help my local B&M store...

They will end up selling me lots and lots of Nikon gear over the next few years.
04-18-2012, 04:42 AM   #368
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Ditto ...

QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
Very well said Sir. All the consumer sees is that the lenses cost more with zero added value.
Agreed ... J


Last edited by Jean Poitiers; 04-18-2012 at 04:50 AM.
04-18-2012, 04:48 AM - 1 Like   #369
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QuoteOriginally posted by AGWoodard Quote
Dear Ned,

Here is how this will help my local B&M store...

They will end up selling me lots and lots of Nikon gear over the next few years.
If I won't buy a 60-250 for $2000 from known sellers like Adorama, B&H, and Amazon with their generous return policies why would I do so from a big box national retailer for $2000 + 7%?
04-18-2012, 04:57 AM   #370
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jean Poitiers Quote
It seems that the margins in this example range from 37% for a DA 50-200 WR to 69% for a FA 50mm f2.8 Macro ...
Very interesting table, thanks a lot for sharing.

What I don't understand:
  1. Why does a dealer need to earn more (extra proportionally) when selling an expensive lens?
  2. How are the dealer margins justified in terms of service?
  3. If a reasonable dealer margin for the 50-135/2.8 is 62% in France (according to the table) why is the current USA dealer margin for this lens higher than 88.2%? (88.2% would be the margin if online dealers had sold the lens with zero profit, which clearly they did not do).
04-18-2012, 04:57 AM   #371
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
Very well said Sir. All the consumer sees is that the lenses cost more with zero added value.
I agree. this plan does not make sense.
DA* 50-135 for 1150 $ ? come on! lower the MSRP, extend the warranty and then we'll talk
dont get me started on the DA* 16-50 1100 $ price tag.
04-18-2012, 05:05 AM   #372
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
Curious what the comments will be on that.
It is real simple. In the threads discussing this, this was discussed.

QuoteQuote:
Pentax has not raised prices. They have required authorized dealers to stick to MSRP [Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price] or some percentage of it (we do not know the exact terms). Pentax is attempting to police their sales channel just as many other manufacturers do. Any additional margin will go to the dealers not Pentax.”
It is still a net increase in price to the buyer. The warranty still sucks relative the price. The DA* lenses should have a 5 year warranty at the current price point and the LTD should have a 3 year warranty. ON top of that, the service channel is too slow. At this price point, it opens up the option of small claims court in Florida and some other states when the drag their but on repair issues servicing a warranty.
04-18-2012, 05:08 AM   #373
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Very interesting table, thanks a lot for sharing.

What I don't understand:
  1. Why does a dealer need to earn more (extra proportionally) when selling an expensive lens?
  2. How are the dealer margins justified in terms of service?
  3. If a reasonable dealer margin for the 50-135/2.8 is 62% in France (according to the table) why is the current USA dealer margin for this lens higher than 88.2%? (88.2% would be the margin if online dealers had sold the lens with zero profit, which clearly they did not do).
It seemed like BH, Adorama and Abe's of Maine were o.k. with their margins. The MSRP thing serves to hurt them.
04-18-2012, 05:13 AM   #374
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For me is kind of shocking what is happening in the US: "we sold you lenses for 700 (or whatever close) and making profit out of it (both manufacturer and retailer), but now you have to pay double. And we're not taking any money, retailer is getting all."

There was no major economic event, they just decided they want double. And you are supposed to "buy" this crap.

I don't buy Pentax lenses in Europe because they are overpriced (i think), but those are the prices i know from when i bought into K-x. I understand up to 2009 Pentax lenses had good prices. They are asking for a lot, so i bought Sigma and Tamron.

Maybe you should make a thread "What Pentax lenses i did not bought lately", and tell what you bought from Sigma, Tamron or other manufacturer and why was a better deal that the equivalent Pentax.
04-18-2012, 05:14 AM - 1 Like   #375
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
It seemed like BH, Adorama and Abe's of Maine were o.k. with their margins. The MSRP thing serves to hurt them.
Precisely! Amazon's automated price/sales software has been flutuating the prices, mostly over the weekend when presumably it is more automated, since the crazy prices were implemented. I take that as a clear indication that sales figures have deviated from established patterns significantly - and since the price keeps jumping down briefly it would support that sales are drying up.
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