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04-18-2012, 05:21 AM   #376
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You would think they would want to expand to other B&M in another manner rather than slamming the little structure they have.

04-18-2012, 05:32 AM   #377
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He pretty much said what a lot of us have already said. it's part of a plan to expand B&M presence by protecting their dealer margins. Nikon does it too. well before this happened i've seen many people talking about how lenses are where the profit is. this is usually the truth for the retailer. Bodies are slim margin and the lenses should make up for that. At the price points the online world had driven them down to that was not the case.
He did acknowledge the need for promotions so I imagine we will see them.
Rant about moving to Nikon et al as much as you want, they too have expensive lenses
This needs to shake itself out and get them settled into the retail channel more solidly before I would judge whether it is a success or not.
I do however agree the MSRP on the DA* line needs some adjustment, and I imagine as sales dry up on those that will happen
it's been less than 3 weeks. let's see where things are in 3 months
04-18-2012, 05:41 AM   #378
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
It is still a net increase in price to the buyer.
Indeed. However, I read it as: "Pentax doesn't intend to globally increase prices by up to 89%, but to fix the situation in the U.S.". I also doubt retailers making almost 50% profit is a requirement, to bring back the lenses in B&M stores.
My guess: after a dramatic sales decline, those prices will be lowered (maybe by offering instant rebates).
04-18-2012, 05:43 AM   #379
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I would not have played the "we have not 'raised' the prices on any lenses" card. At the end of the day what is the difference between
"We have made it more expensive for you to buy lenses (in some cases almost doubled the price)"
vs
"We have raised the prices on lenses"?
Essentially, there is no difference and a customer does not care where the additional $700+ for a 50-135mm go.

If anything, a loyal Pentaxian would appreciate if extra money went to Pentax, rather than dealers. So I do not get how "We did not raise lens prices" holds up to sweeten the deal in any way.

I wonder in what way the user comment Ned quoted is just "pretty accurate". Maybe Pentax did not raise lens prices in the sense that they didn't raise the MSRP but potentially they could be raising the price they sell the lenses to retailers. Or in what other way could the quoted comment just "pretty accurate" rather than "spot on"?

Ned's message unfortunately does not clarify the motivation for making it more expensive for US customers to buy Pentax glass. Pentax USA has been operating with a different scheme for years and all the good reasons provided now (support B&M stores, etc) were applicable all along. So why the change? Did Pentax USA not want to "expand" before? I can only speculate that perhaps the "major National account" deal Ned refers to was only possible by Pentax committing to reign in online dealers.

Another unanswered question is how Pentax imagines to compete against Canikon with these prices. Isn't there a big chance that we may just see Pentax lenses at B&M stores but that they won't sell because they are just not competitive in terms of value for money (SDM issues + 1 year warranty for over double the price of Canon L glass?!?)?

Given that online retailers such as Adorama have generous return conditions and hence allow you to play with a camera much more extensively than you could ever in a store, I don't see the "touch and test the product" argument. I can see that more Pentax presence in B&M stores may increase Pentax exposure to a wider audience, but it does not appear to be true that anyone who is already interested in a Pentax product now has a better chance of "touch[ing] and test[ing] the product".

Rebate promises sound nice, but overall I'm concerned that many potential future Pentaxians will evaluate Pentax products on Adorama prices and not on occasional rebate prices.

In summary, Ned's message clarifies that the driving motivation for the unilateral pricing strategy is to strengthen Pentax presence in B&M stores, but AFAIC it leaves more question open than it answers.
This is a conflict of interest. Pentax's clients are not us, but the retailers, and of course Pentax wants to attract more retailers, not less. If those retailers refuse to sell Pentax gear because they cannot compete in terms of price with some online retailers, then Pentax can do something about it. You are right that the effect may be that prices may still increase for us as users, but Pentax itself has not raised prices, so that comment by Ned is accurate.

Also, I think it's a bit strange: we all say we want Pentax to expand. People are constantly whining about fullframe, longer lenses, fast wide-angle lenses, etc etc etc. Now, if Pentax thinks this is a necessary step to expand their business, who are we to discredit that, given that they don't profit from it now? Maybe this will enable them to deliver what we say we want in terms of bodies and lenses (an assumption on my part, but, given their recent lens roadmaps, a fair one I think). So the question may be a slightly different one: what do we really want? A big Pentax with big prices and no gaps, or a small Pentax with small prices and gaps? I don't think it's a coincidence that Canikon prices are big. It may be the only way to go.

04-18-2012, 05:45 AM   #380
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QuoteOriginally posted by dankoBanana Quote
DA* 50-135 for 1150 $ ? come on! lower the MSRP, extend the warranty and then we'll talk
dont get me started on the DA* 16-50 1100 $ price tag.
If only.

MSRP for 50-135 = $1600 (minus 5 cents)
MSRP for 16-50 = $1500 (minus 5 cents)

04-18-2012, 05:52 AM   #381
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
If only.

MSRP for 50-135 = $1600 (minus 5 cents)
MSRP for 16-50 = $1500 (minus 5 cents)

16-50 is 1099 on amazon this AM, but to be fair the nikon 17-55 2.8 dx lens is 1609 so the Pentax isn't out to lunch at 1500 (and if it goes on instant rebate for 1099 sporadically it makes sense)
It also looks like it may be replaced based on the roadmap
Better warranties on lenses I agree is an idea they need to look at
04-18-2012, 06:27 AM   #382
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Here's Ned's response: http://nedbunnell.posterous.com/lens-prices-and-our-channel-strategy-in-the-u
04-18-2012, 06:38 AM   #383
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No, no and no ...

QuoteOriginally posted by starbase218 Quote
This is a conflict of interest. Pentax's clients are not us, but the retailers, and of course Pentax wants to attract more retailers, not less. If those retailers refuse to sell Pentax gear because they cannot compete in terms of price with some online retailers, then Pentax can do something about it. You are right that the effect may be that prices may still increase for us as users, but Pentax itself has not raised prices, so that comment by Ned is accurate.

Also, I think it's a bit strange: we all say we want Pentax to expand. People are constantly whining about fullframe, longer lenses, fast wide-angle lenses, etc etc etc. Now, if Pentax thinks this is a necessary step to expand their business, who are we to discredit that, given that they don't profit from it now? Maybe this will enable them to deliver what we say we want in terms of bodies and lenses (an assumption on my part, but, given their recent lens roadmaps, a fair one I think). So the question may be a slightly different one: what do we really want? A big Pentax with big prices and no gaps, or a small Pentax with small prices and gaps? I don't think it's a coincidence that Canikon prices are big. It may be the only way to go.
Bonjour,

When I read that a manufacturer's clients are its retailers and/or distributors, INSTEAD OF THE END USERS OF THEIR PRODUCTS ... well, I will always say no, no and no ...

I worked in a new car dealership in the States long ago and that particular manufacturer really did not care too much aboout "us", its dealers ... we were the conduit to push the product to the end user that was hopefully demanding said product(s) and willing to pay a reasonable price given the particular market segment and the product(s) positioning within that market.

Why spend mega-bucks on advertising to the target end users if they do not matter? That advertising budget would be best spent on the retailers and/or distributors.

When you have a slump in sales and/or cyclical sales with end of year models, why put out special sales promotions to the general public ... one would be throwing potential future porfit into the toilet if it was unnecessary to lower prices and/or push product down the production pipeline ... toward the end users.

I could cite many other examples, but of all my retail experiences, which are more than I mentioned above, there one saying that always rings true: "The client is king" !

Also, I have always thought the term "supply and demand" was backwards for the retail world ... "if you build it, they will buy it" ...nope. It should be rather "demand and supply" ... "if they will buy it, then build it for them" ... "them" being the end user and not a conduit in the distribution channel ...

Trust me on this one, there's nothing worse than seeing a parking lot full of new cars that you have purchased from the manufacturer (and even have more on force-feed distribution orders that have not arrived), but yet you cannot move them off that same lot because NO ONE WILL BUY THEM!

Salut, John le Frog

04-18-2012, 06:43 AM   #384
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
16-50 is 1099 on amazon this AM, ...
I can only assume that Amazon is currently breaching the new unilateral pricing rules.

The MSRP for the 16-50 at the Pentax webstore and Adorama is $1500 (minus 5 cents).

The Nikon 17-55/2.8 you mentioned is $1,424 from Adorama.

The Tamron 17-50/2.8 is optically better than the Pentax 16-50/2.8 and is $474 from Adorama. No weather sealing but six(!) years warranty.
04-18-2012, 06:45 AM   #385
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jean Poitiers Quote
Bonjour,

When I read that a manufacturer's clients are its retailers and/or distributors, INSTEAD OF THE END USERS OF THEIR PRODUCTS ... well, I will always say no, no and no ...

I worked in a new car dealership in the States long ago and that particular manufacturer really did not care too much aboout "us", its dealers ... we were the conduit to push the product to the end user that was hopefully demanding said product(s) and willing to pay a reasonable price given the particular market segment and the product(s) positioning within that market.

Why spend mega-bucks on advertising to the target end users if they do not matter? That advertising budget would be best spent on the retailers and/or distributors.

When you have a slump in sales and/or cyclical sales with end of year models, why put out special sales promotions to the general public ... one would be throwing potential future porfit into the toilet if it was unnecessary to lower prices and/or push product down the production pipeline ... toward the end users.

I could cite many other examples, but of all my retail experiences, which are more than I mentioned above, there one saying that aways rings true: "The client is king" !

Also, I have always thought the term "supply and demand" was backwards for the retail world ... "if you build it, they will buy it" ...nope. It should be rather "demand and supply" ... "if they will buy it, then build it for them" ... "them" being the end user and not a conduit in the distribution channel ...

Trust me on this one, there's nothing worse than seeing a parking lot full of new cars that you have purchased from the manufacturer (and even have more on force-feed distribution orders that have not arrived), but yet you cannot move them off that same lot because NO ONE WILL BUY THEM!

Salut, John le Frog
Agreed the end user is the client, but the dealer is as well. If you have no dealers but an excellent product it won't sell either. In the US Pentax had virtually no dealers so addressing the issue makes sense (People can go on about how the web has changed the shopping paradigm in the US all they want, the one thing I know from my years in retail is if you put a good product in someones hands and have it visible it sells. sony canon and nikon all have excellent B&M presence, and they also have good share. Sony essentially started from scratch (yes they bought the mount, but not buying the name meant an uphill battle. Sony kept B&M because they are known for protecting margins
04-18-2012, 06:49 AM   #386
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The Nikon 17-55 seems to be $1,609.51 at Adorama. Still, the DA* is IMO too expensive.
04-18-2012, 06:55 AM   #387
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I can only assume that Amazon is currently breaching the new unilateral pricing rules.

The MSRP for the 16-50 at the Pentax webstore and Adorama is $1500 (minus 5 cents).

The Nikon 17-55/2.8 you mentioned is $1,424 from Adorama.

The Tamron 17-50/2.8 is optically better than the Pentax 16-50/2.8 and is $474 from Adorama. No weather sealing but six(!) years warranty.
So buy the Tamron. Many do because the DA8 has always been expensive in comparison

I was pointing out the fact that Nikon is not a cheaper option. It's still not
04-18-2012, 06:57 AM   #388
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jean Poitiers Quote
Bonjour,

When I read that a manufacturer's clients are its retailers and/or distributors, INSTEAD OF THE END USERS OF THEIR PRODUCTS ... well, I will always say no, no and no ...

I worked in a new car dealership in the States long ago and that particular manufacturer really did not care too much aboout "us", its dealers ... we were the conduit to push the product to the end user that was hopefully demanding said product(s) and willing to pay a reasonable price given the particular market segment and the product(s) positioning within that market.
Nevertheless, you bought cars from that manufacturer and sold them to end-users, didn't you? If the manufacturer didn't care about the relationship he had with you, that may be his fault (keeping good relationships is very important IMHO). But it doesn't change the fact that you are his direct customer.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jean Poitiers Quote
Why spend mega-bucks on advertising to the target end users if they do not matter? That advertising budget would be best spent on the retailers and/or distributors.
Stop right there. Where did I say the end-users don't matter?

QuoteOriginally posted by Jean Poitiers Quote
When you have a slump in sales and/or cyclical sales with end of year models, why put out special sales promotions to the general public ... one would be throwing potential future porfit into the toilet if it was unnecessary to lower prices and/or push product down the production pipeline ... toward the end users.
Yes, there has to be demand, in order to supply. But I didn't get my car from Ford. I got it from a local dealer (well actually it's a lease car, but whatever). Anyway cars are probably not a good comparison because prices are fixed by the manufacturers.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jean Poitiers Quote
I could cite many other examples, but of all my retail experiences, which are more than I mentioned above, there one saying that always rings true: "The client is king" !
No argument there. Just a different interpretation.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jean Poitiers Quote
Also, I have always thought the term "supply and demand" was backwards for the retail world ... "if you build it, they will buy it" ...nope. It should be rather "demand and supply" ... "if they will buy it, then build it for them" ... "them" being the end user and not a conduit in the distribution channel ...
Scroll up a bit and you'll see I am saying the exact same thing. It still doesn't change the fact that I can't buy my camera from Pentax. I have to go to a store. They buy the cameras from Pentax.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jean Poitiers Quote
Trust me on this one, there's nothing worse than seeing a parking lot full of new cars that you have purchased from the manufacturer (and even have more on force-feed distribution orders that have not arrived), but yet you cannot move them off that same lot because NO ONE WILL BUY THEM!
Again you are assuming things. The only thing I said is that we are not Pentax's customers, the retailers are. You are implying I said Pentax doesn't care about us or about making us want to buy their gear. That's a completely different thing.
04-18-2012, 07:11 AM   #389
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It all boils down to this.

Hoya tried it's very best to kill Pentax. When they couldn't, they sold it to Richo, who seems to have found a way to finish the job.

It's just time to move on. I've loved my Pentax experience over the years, but there are more complete systems, with more 3rd party support, that more than offset any benefit Pentax now offers me. It's a sad day. I hope it all works out for those of you who remain loyal to Pentax. Best of light to you all.........
04-18-2012, 07:13 AM   #390
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