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01-16-2008, 09:42 PM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom Lusk Quote
Looks like we think alike on this topic. I posted this yesterday in another thread, but WendyB apparently is not inclined to respond. Too busy doing laundry?

Let's hope P didn't add too much "fabric softener" in the "rinse cycle" and such. Too bizarre, huh?

"In order to "match" anything to anything, you have to have TWO samples.

Are you saying that every camera sold has a sample photo stored somewhere along with the corresponding serial numbers and current owner info?

No- you can't possibly believe that. What exactly ARE you saying, then?"


EDIT- Just had a thought. Yes- I did! Would it not be possible for Pentax to tag the prototype cameras they pass out to beta testers so that if photos showed up before they were supposed to they could identify the source? And could they not inform the testers of this fact so that the testers would not risk breaking their NDA? OR, if they couldn't tag the cameras, could they not bluff and pretend they could, so that there would be no leaked photos? Wow- I guess I had more than one thought!
Every image captured on any digital camera since 911 has a "signature fingerprint"

01-17-2008, 12:08 AM   #92
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did I miss something?

QuoteOriginally posted by WendyB Quote
Every image captured on any digital camera since 911 has a "signature fingerprint"
Could you please explain how the US government got all the CCD/CMOS sensor fabrication plants to modify the circuits on every sensor to contain a "fingerprint"? Now I know that some people think that the US government has a lot of influence - but every digital camera?

In the weeks after 9/11/2001 I sure do not remember having every single digital camera sent back to the factory to get "fingerprinted". Nor do I know of a point where ALL digital sensors get “sampled” for fingerprints. Please remember that the US government has a real hard time keeping things secret. I also do not think that Canon, Sony, Samsung, Kodak etc. would be obliged to follow the some arbitrary commandment from Washington DC. The governments of those countries - other than Kodak - where the above companies are located, would respond with a single digit in the general direction of DC.

Just think of the design issues that would have to be surmounted. EXIF data would have to be stored in an international format and your sales would have to be tracked. All this while the camera manufacturers can not decide on a common RAW file format? Who owns the patent, where is the patent information - how would this be kept secret - when the design and fab areas are not in the US?

Urban myth - pure and simple.

Besides, I doubt if they know about my camera(s). I bought them, but never sent anything in to Pentax (USA or not) giving them my serial number or name. Now, bring on the black helicopters, mutilated cows and ---- if we have Flying Saucers just why do we still use airplanes, aircraft carriers and the space shuttle?

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01-17-2008, 12:12 AM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by WendyB Quote
Every image captured on any digital camera since 911 has a "signature fingerprint"
Okay, seriously, where are you getting this stuff from? Maybe time to order some tin foil hats?

Technically speaking, every digital image ever made has such a fingerprint because it's inherent in the sensor -- not just starting with "911". But, the technology to recognize and compare them is in its infancy, and it's not certain exactly how confidant one can be in a match. That's the state of the art.

But what you're implying is that a) there exists a vast secret database of all camera sensors and their proper fingerprints and b) corporations access this for their own internal needs, not just for national security and c) you personally have expert knowledge of this.

If any one of these is true, please share your evidence, because this is a story for the front page of every major newspaper tomorrow morning.

Oh, and I forgot d) -- Pentax knows the noise fingerprint of every sensor, but still doesn't map out dead pixels except by special request.

I was pretty eager to believe your other rumors, but this claim isn't even far-fetched -- it's flat out unbelievable. You want maybe to backpedal and say that you're just repeating what someone told you?
01-17-2008, 12:15 AM   #94
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frankly speculation {imo} is just fueled by "gear freaks", i hope p takes all the time needed to actualy asses what is hapening and what is needed by the industry, and not what trivial features will send all the cashed up wana be's out with there wallets to grab what ever is offered.....the more new modles released , the more they can sell.
more is not better

01-17-2008, 12:17 AM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by PDL Quote
In the weeks after 9/11/2001 I sure do not remember having every single digital camera sent back to the factory to get "fingerprinted". Nor do I know of a point where ALL digital sensors get “sampled” for fingerprints. Please remember that the US government has a real hard time keeping things secret.
Even if you're willing to believe that they've made this database (and software that works with it) and successfully keep it completely secret, in order for what WendyB to be saying to be true, you also have to believe that she is one of the few who have been let into the secret, and has decided to let it slip, presumably blowing all future security clearance to discredit some pictures of a camera which leaked two weeks early.

Uh-huh, sure.
01-17-2008, 12:45 AM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
Even if you're willing to believe that they've made this database (and software that works with it) and successfully keep it completely secret, in order for what WendyB to be saying to be true, you also have to believe that she is one of the few who have been let into the secret, and has decided to let it slip, presumably blowing all future security clearance to discredit some pictures of a camera which leaked two weeks early.

Uh-huh, sure.
Actually I do not see in your coments an reason to beleive those more than WendyB comments.
I understand one might doubt Wendy's comments and discerdit them as being "baseless" but yours are too so really, this is all a non issue IMO.
01-17-2008, 12:45 AM   #97
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Now that it is out --- where did those black helicopters - er saucers come from?

QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
Even if you're willing to believe that they've made this database (and software that works with it) and successfully keep it completely secret, in order for what WendyB to be saying to be true, you also have to believe that she is one of the few who have been let into the secret, and has decided to let it slip, presumably blowing all future security clearance to discredit some pictures of a camera which leaked two weeks early.

Uh-huh, sure.
Maybe WendyB should turn herself in for giving up Government secrets. I can hear the black helicopters, er saucers, searching for her now (I have special hearing that I got from the Saucer people - who exclusively shoot with their Pentax third eye - the future KE1000 -- K Eye 1000).

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01-17-2008, 12:59 AM   #98
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I don't know about digital camera, but this certainly applies for color copiers and printers.

Since 2005, most higher quality color printers and copiers (including all Xerox and Canon) have steganographically embedded their identification code in the printed pages. Ref. 1 Ref. 2.

So technologically, it is certainly possible. Is it being done? I have no idea.

01-17-2008, 01:07 AM   #99
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Please read the article(s) - the embedding of the equivalent of a serial number into a printed document is not the same as "fingerprinting" a camera Sensor. Most scanners, copiers etc. use linear CCD/CMOS sensors - so a fingerprint would be repeated down the image and it would have to be collectable when printing text too. The article states that the "code" is a set of yellow dots - now how does that work on a B&W printer? The articles also only talk about high end color Laser printers - not ink jets.

WHOA - maybe that is where VPN comes from!! The signature is causing it - d*mn terrorists.

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01-17-2008, 01:29 AM   #100
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Yes, because one can use a high-end printer/copier to print money. This information is added to the printed image and not when scanning a document.
01-17-2008, 01:53 AM   #101
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agree there

QuoteOriginally posted by Buddha Jones Quote
I know Pentax isn't a joke, but hte "Specubators" as I have chosen to call them sure are making a mockery out of it all.
I have to agree with Buddha Jones here...
If Pentax were to build camera to fullfill the expectations posted just on this forum, they'd have to overpass D3 or EOS 1D Mk III with size and weight of K10D...
No wonder some people will then point fingers and laugh when the new K??D will come out, becouse the speculations (passed by Pentaxians and considered true specs by others) simply won't be matched.
Why don't we just sit down and wait, and then write about the new cam when we actually will have it. In mean time, let's go out and take good pics with what we have...
01-17-2008, 01:54 AM   #102
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If I were a Nikon or Canon user, I wouldn't be arguing that much.
01-17-2008, 03:54 AM   #103
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Canon and Nikon users are calm, sensible and never complain. How noble!
01-17-2008, 05:41 AM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Actually I do not see in your coments an reason to beleive those more than WendyB comments.
I understand one might doubt Wendy's comments and discerdit them as being "baseless" but yours are too so really, this is all a non issue IMO.
Well, try applying logic to each and see which makes more rational sense. Look at, for example, the yellow dots in printers -- it's true, and you can read etails about it on legit webites -- not just the references nosnoop gives but a huge amount of detail at the EFF. Not so this claim about camera sensors, which would be a much bigger deal were it true (especially if it worked so well that it could function on pictures as downsized as the ones we're talking about here are).

And you can also learn there that this "anti-terrorist" (or at least anti-counterfeiting) program for printers is far from universally adopted -- yet WendyB claims that the supposed sensor database covers every digital camera made in the last six and a half years. I don't think I've ever made a claim so extraordinary. (And if I ever do, please call me on it.)

Or here's another way to judge credibility of two forum posters -- how long does it take you to find my real name, a picture of me, and where I work? How about "WendyB"? (You can maybe find some info with digging, but how confident are you of the link?)

If WendyB is just pulling your leg, does she have a reputation to care about or will she just disappear and show up with another name if she has a serious question later?
01-17-2008, 09:28 AM   #105
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This fingerprint software story is interesting. but is such software publicly available, if so we can just get it and see. if not (more likely) then why does wendyB have it.
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