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01-18-2008, 08:55 AM   #121
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strawman argument

QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
You fail to understand her point, I think. Of course the database won't be found on a patent paper. But the tech involved, yes. She probably meant you can find techs related to fingerprint in the patents office if so you decide to actually really check anything.
But I don't doubt the claim that such technology exists in a rudimentary form. It does. I'm sure there are related patents, although of course a real patent search takes time, money, and expertise.

Doesn't matter though, because the specific claims are that these pictures were identified as being from a K100D through fingerprinting, that the individual registered owner could be identified somehow, that this is true for all cameras since "911", and that MIT is involved. (Did I forget anything?)

All of those are separate from a patent on a technique. But I'm also actually fairly confident that the technique is not yet advanced to the point of being worrisome. Why? Bcause there are people who are experts with money and time who watch the patent office (and scientific journals) for things like this, and the privacy implications of this are huge, and huge for journalists, which is why you can bet we'd hear about it without doing any sort of obscure digging. If someone wants to point me to an advanced patent on fingerprinting technique that you think counters what I'm saying, let me know, and I'll send it to the EFF (or do that yourself) and we will have it in the news tomorrow.

01-18-2008, 09:10 AM   #122
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Mmm I just thought about something.

There's some banding in the pictures posted, right?
Now, if the K20D is supposed not to produce banding (whatever the reason, I don't care in this context) then it can't be a K20D. If the noise do not follow usual K10D kind of noise, chances are that it is indeed a K100D.

But this has nothing to do with a fingerprint.
01-18-2008, 09:52 AM   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Mmm I just thought about something.

There's some banding in the pictures posted, right?
Now, if the K20D is supposed not to produce banding (whatever the reason, I don't care in this context) then it can't be a K20D. If the noise do not follow usual K10D kind of noise, chances are that it is indeed a K100D.

But this has nothing to do with a fingerprint.
Honestly the banding pattern looks exactly like K10D-style noise to me. Never saw anything like that with my K100D (although I didn't use it at ISO 3200 much). It's still quite possible that the images are fake. Likely, even.
01-18-2008, 11:17 AM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anastigmat Quote
I think the rumor that the new Pentax will have a 14mp APS-C sensor with low noise is laughable. No one makes such a sensor, so people have to start another rumor that Pentax is the designer of the sensor. Why would Pentax go through the expense and risk the uncertainties of going out and designing its own sensor when it can get a good, proven 12mp APS-C sensor quite cheaply from Sony? Besides, a 14mp APS-C sensor cannot possibly be low noise because of the tiny pixels. It does not make any sense at all.
On second thought, I have some precisions to add on this "Pentax 14,6MP can't be low noise":

1/ You are 100% right IF Pentax uses the same exact technology that Sony uses in its 12MP chip; But the "message" from Pentax was that they indeed were using a different approach...


2/ Pentax never said (AFAIK) that they would produce better, or even the same, noise characteristics than the D300/A700/40D produce. They "said" that they would produce better noise characteristics than the K10.
Now when you compare D300 ISO 1600 images to K10 ISO 1600 images, that leaves quite a gap!

My "guess" about the future results of the K**D are that it will have better noise characteristics than K10D but might still be inferior to D300/A700/40D in the high ISO noise department (maybe 1/2 to 1 stop higher in noise as the K10 is about 1 1/2 stop worse).

I hope K**D will do better or even as good as D300 but, without a significant breakthrough of Pentax in the CMOS departement (which they hinted at but we can't be sure until we see results from the actual camera) , I doubt it.

Still, it could be a significant progress on K10.


Last edited by lol101; 01-18-2008 at 11:30 AM.
01-18-2008, 12:27 PM   #125
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K10D VPN pattern could mean the new K200D maybe

I wonder if the pics are made with the K200D instead of a K100D, K10D. That could explain some similarities in noise pattern from the same Sony sensor and put the author in the right place in Dubai at the time of the press conference. I saw no proof about the real ISO to exclude anything other than K20D.

This is my first post here and I want to say "hi" to all the honorable members of this forum and my brothers in which some time I suspect to be an obsesion

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01-18-2008, 10:16 PM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
I wonder if the pics are made with the K200D instead of a K100D, K10D. That could explain some similarities in noise pattern from the same Sony sensor and put the author in the right place in Dubai at the time of the press conference. I saw no proof about the real ISO to exclude anything other than K20D.

This is my first post here and I want to say "hi" to all the honorable members of this forum and my brothers in which some time I suspect to be an obsesion

Radu
Hey Radu. Welcome to the forums!

You have a good point about the pictures being from the K200D. In any case, it's only a few days away until the announcements. We'll all know for certain.
01-19-2008, 05:06 AM   #127
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Hi, Vinzer and thanks!

It's nice to be here. My first concern is the availability of K20D since I already sold my K100D. And equally important would be the new lens roadmap and how soon those will get on the market.

Radu
01-19-2008, 07:08 AM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anastigmat Quote
I think the rumor that the new Pentax will have a 14mp APS-C sensor with low noise is laughable. No one makes such a sensor, so people have to start another rumor that Pentax is the designer of the sensor. Why would Pentax go through the expense and risk the uncertainties of going out and designing its own sensor when it can get a good, proven 12mp APS-C sensor quite cheaply from Sony? Besides, a 14mp APS-C sensor cannot possibly be low noise because of the tiny pixels. It does not make any sense at all.
Ummm, Anastigmat here is your answer to your question.

If you read the patent office stuff between Samsung and Pentax you will see that they have devised a method to make the pixels the same size, but shrink the gap between the pixels.

So think of this... a sensor with the same photosite size of a a smaller MP count sensor so same light gathering capability per pixel, but we narrow that gap between them. Yes I understand that nobody else has this technology, but Samsung does and could possibly use it for this sensor.

Now another point to make is you say how can 14MP APS-C sensor have better low ISO noise characteristic than a 12MP one... well you love this 12MP sensor and it has a better noise characteristic than the Sony 10MP sensor! So you've basically bashed one sensor on the probability that it'll have higher noise yet the same statement should have worked on the sensor you put on such a high pedestal.

It's not just MPs, but also how clean the pipeline is from the sensor and also the technology used on the sensor itself that tells us how much noise will be created. The reason the Sony 12MP is better than the 10MP one is for this very same reason. Smaller photosite sizes, but there are large micro lenses that increase the amount of light that is sent to each pixel and also a cleaner pipeline meant the sensor in the A700 and D300 were better than the sensor in the A100 and D200.

I hoped you've learned something for once and trust me that the camera does handle noise very well and will do so much better once the firmware is finalized.

01-19-2008, 07:13 AM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
On second thought, I have some precisions to add on this "Pentax 14,6MP can't be low noise":

1/ You are 100% right IF Pentax uses the same exact technology that Sony uses in its 12MP chip; But the "message" from Pentax was that they indeed were using a different approach...


2/ Pentax never said (AFAIK) that they would produce better, or even the same, noise characteristics than the D300/A700/40D produce. They "said" that they would produce better noise characteristics than the K10.
Now when you compare D300 ISO 1600 images to K10 ISO 1600 images, that leaves quite a gap!

My "guess" about the future results of the K**D are that it will have better noise characteristics than K10D but might still be inferior to D300/A700/40D in the high ISO noise department (maybe 1/2 to 1 stop higher in noise as the K10 is about 1 1/2 stop worse).

I hope K**D will do better or even as good as D300 but, without a significant breakthrough of Pentax in the CMOS departement (which they hinted at but we can't be sure until we see results from the actual camera) , I doubt it.

Still, it could be a significant progress on K10.
Pentax did the best job with the Sony 10MP sensor in terms of noise if you compare it the D200 and the A100 so we know they are capable of being better than the competition.

I'm not totally sure of the noise characteristic in the K20D, but from what I've seen and compared it directly with an A700 I think everyone will be happy.

Oh this camera will have the most technological advances in a camera since well DSLR's came into the market and some of those are directly on the sensor
01-20-2008, 12:35 AM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote

Pentax never said (AFAIK) that they would produce better, or even the same, noise characteristics than the D300/A700/40D produce.

Yes, well it is enough already with trying to clarify the lower expectation of what Pentax "said".

They said the SDM would be "quieter". - They didn't say "Faster"...

They said the noise was "better" than the K10D, They didn't say "better than the D300/A700/40D" etcetera

No need to excuse less performance than the competition based on semantics.

Pentax should just finally avoid these issues and make SDM faster and with better predictive AF.

They should work to mean that the noise is better than the A700/40D/D300, and not keep accepting less performance.

QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
we know they are capable of being better than the competition.

The technology is out there already. Pentax engineers are smart enough to understand it and incorporate it. The other companies still make high profits while incorporating these technologies, so cost is not the issue.

Last edited by mutley; 01-20-2008 at 12:42 AM.
01-20-2008, 01:49 AM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
Yes, well it is enough already with trying to clarify the lower expectation of what Pentax "said".

They said the SDM would be "quieter". - They didn't say "Faster"...

They said the noise was "better" than the K10D, They didn't say "better than the D300/A700/40D" etcetera

No need to excuse less performance than the competition based on semantics.

Pentax should just finally avoid these issues and make SDM faster and with better predictive AF.

They should work to mean that the noise is better than the A700/40D/D300, and not keep accepting less performance.




The technology is out there already. Pentax engineers are smart enough to understand it and incorporate it. The other companies still make high profits while incorporating these technologies, so cost is not the issue.
If the price point of K20D is the same as 40D/A700 (which was not the case for K10D), I agree that it should have comparable performances and I would not pay that price to get a lower performing camera.

I based the above on the estimate that K20D would be priced similarly to K10D when it launched (900).
01-20-2008, 02:10 AM   #132
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Basically Mutley and his ilk want the new Pentax cameras to be the same or better than the competition. Don't we all.

But, they also want it to cost a lot less than the competitions. (Mainly to fit in their budget, which is valid as many of us including me chose Pentax on price and value for money)

I am very happy with my *istDS and when out with my local photo club who all use Nikon, I have just as much fun as the guys with the D200's - sometimes I even produce better shots.

I don't whine about my AF being slower and they don't whine about my 30 year old 55mm F1.8 trouncing one of their expensive zooms for sharpness and resolution. (Although the D50 shooter is a little envious of my AF and prime lenses.)


I feel sorry for those like Mutley, they really want to join the herd over at canikon but just don't have the funds to buy the top of the range - so they go to Pentax buy the top of the range and then whinge and whine because their camera doesn't have features of one 3 x the price.
01-20-2008, 03:20 AM   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by Falcons Quote
Basically Mutley and his ilk want the new Pentax cameras to be the same or better than the competition. Don't we all.

But, they also want it to cost a lot less than the competitions. (Mainly to fit in their budget, which is valid as many of us including me chose Pentax on price and value for money)
In my particular case, whatever it will cost, it will be out of my budget since I blew my "wad" on the K10D and won't be able to buy the new body for another year or two when the price drops substantially. If the K10D was priced the same as a 30D (or now the K20D), I would have never bought a Pentax due to just not being able to afford it. I probably would have ended up with a crappy Rebel 300 or 350.


QuoteOriginally posted by Falcons Quote
I feel sorry for those like Mutley, they really want to join the herd over at canikon but just don't have the funds to buy the top of the range - so they go to Pentax buy the top of the range and then whinge and whine because their camera doesn't have features of one 3 x the price.
Good try at making me sound like just simply a moron, but there was no need. Most think that already on this forum As they say in ancient mayan: "whatever".

I never had any interest in getting either a Nikon or Canon and despite my posts holding Pentax to the hope that they take the K10D's deficiencies seriously instead of denying or ignoring them - I actually like my K10D, its specific feature set, and the color accuracy I can get.

The issues I post about are also posted about in greater detail by many more people than just me. As far as the K10D goes, either the supposed impossibility, or just plain decision to never improve any of the performance issues by firmware, with denial and blaming the user instead is what keeps these subjects alive. And this is compared to cameras of similar price, not "3x the price".

How unaware of the competition is Pentax? Just the fact that they actually asked Ben (he can confirm this) if he really thinks Pentax AF is slower than the competition - whatever he may have answered - makes one wonder if they didn't even pick up a D80 or 30D and put the cameras to the test and physically see what the predictive & low light focusing results were compared to the K10D as research before finalizing the design.

There are firmware tweaks that can improve AF performance. Such as a Sport mode that eliminates multiple corrections is AFC and AFS. The point is do they want to give us this, or is it just not important to them.
01-20-2008, 04:53 AM   #134
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Deficiencies?
It is no deficiency to me I have absolutely no problem with the AF speed and I would say 99% of Pentax owners have no problems with AF speed on their Pentax.

Now I am sure many of them are under an illusion that if they had faster AF speed then their photos would be better and some of those that can afford it have jumped the fence to supposed greener pastures. The reality is that faster AF hasn't improved anything for them.

Now some photographers need faster AF due to the style of photography they do (in particular sports) and I am not talking kids soccer matches here any Pentax is more than capable here. I am talking about a professional who eats or doesn't depending on capturing just that moment - fast AF and fast fps is vital to them. They don't use Pentax due to the fact it doesn't meet their needs, for the moment, and they invest in the best equipment they can buy.


My point is Pentax does not make cameras for sports photography professionals - Pentax makes fantastic cameras at (for the moment) are affordable to most. They can also be used by many professional photographers in areas such as fashion, portraiture, weddings etc.

If you don't like your camera Mutley - sell it. If you can't afford a canikon then seriously find another hobby -
just because you are miserable don't try and make everyone else out to be stupid for being happy with the performance of their cameras.
01-20-2008, 06:05 AM   #135
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To Falcons (and others)

QuoteOriginally posted by Falcons Quote
Deficiencies?
It is no deficiency to me I have absolutely no problem with the AF speed and I would say 99% of Pentax owners have no problems with AF speed on their Pentax.
I bet you are wrong here. The AF on K10D is "less than optimal" - to put it mildly. It would be interesting with a poll on this subject. Which fraction of the Pentax DSLR-owners has "absolutely no problem with the AF speed" and thus doesn't want an improvement!?

QuoteQuote:
Now I am sure many of them are under an illusion that if they had faster AF speed then their photos would be better and some of those that can afford it have jumped the fence to supposed greener pastures. The reality is that faster AF hasn't improved anything for them.
Well, I suppose it has improved the ratio of focused versus unfocused pictures.

QuoteQuote:
Now some photographers need faster AF due to the style of photography they do (in particular sports) and I am not talking kids soccer matches here any Pentax is more than capable here.
You are wrong. Compared to other brands at the same price level, K10d is subpar when it comes to keep focus on a moving object - this also includes kids playing soccer. It doesn't mean that the K10D is a terrible camera, but I'm not in denial on the few K10D disadvantages.

QuoteQuote:
My point is Pentax does not make cameras for sports photography professionals - Pentax makes fantastic cameras at (for the moment) are affordable to most. They can also be used by many professional photographers in areas such as fashion, portraiture, weddings etc.
I agree. Pentax K10D is a fantastic camera and very low priced considering the specifications. I consider it second to none when it comes to value for money - even for the (very) advanced photographer. Though, this doesn't mean that we're not allowed to point to the K10D's defiencies (all cameras have some...) and hope for improvements.

QuoteQuote:
If you don't like your camera Mutley - sell it. If you can't afford a canikon then seriously find another hobby -
just because you are miserable don't try and make everyone else out to be stupid for being happy with the performance of their cameras.
Falcons, why are you so bitter? This should be a friendly forum where everybody are allowed to express praise and concern regarding Pentax cameras. It should be allowed to point to features where Pentax has room for improvement - without being bullied by other Pentax owners. A mature and sociable is not the right place to display harrasive fanboyism.

- Larsen.
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