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04-19-2012, 07:51 PM   #286
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But then the question is,Who new? You could only read their script. not knowing the truth that's why i switched to Pentax. These changes are not cheap.
Hank

04-19-2012, 08:16 PM   #287
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
Sunny and dry with a strong chance of Choir Singing and Koolaid later in the day
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04-20-2012, 03:32 AM   #288
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Nice try. I sympothize with trying to make us think this is about helping the small store compete and give your customers more hands on. I'll admit...I've walked into more than one camera store wishing to see latest models. However, my sense is you are disenfranchizing your real customer base (e.g. the value oriented not the popularity oriented).

I'm no expert but to me Pentax brought value to the market price over the decades. They realized that lenses not the cameras cost photographers and being one of the first to support DSLRs kept me. Placing the stabilization on the camera so we don't buy the technology every time we buy a lense (again value). Quality lenses at affordable prices.

Now that Pentax is fixing prices (to level the playing field) its likely Pentax will get a small, short-term, bump in wholesales as a few new retailers come on board, but in essence Pentax is shifting toward a new customer base tied more to the popularity model. Considering Nikanon's and the Panasony's have those locked up, so I don't think that simple price fixing is really in the best interest of Pentax bottom line or its loyal customer base.

I love Pentax...and I support Pentax making lots of money. If you can market me that I need more cameras and better lenses great...but I prefer Pentax continue their focus on innovation that supports more not less value in the market place
04-20-2012, 04:59 AM   #289
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QuoteOriginally posted by oneeyedhawk Quote
But then the question is,Who new? You could only read their script. not knowing the truth that's why i switched to Pentax. These changes are not cheap.
Hank
Referring to your previous post Hank you realise that Sony and Nikon both have a similar policy to the one Pentax just instituted
Add that Ned mentioned Prices will settle and rebate programs will kick in (I'm guessing the prices settling comment was likely a reference to the DA* line which really is overpriced at the current level. I can see the 16-50 dropping to 1099 with $100 off on the rebate program for instance)

04-20-2012, 05:20 AM   #290
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
Referring to your previous post Hank you realise that Sony and Nikon both have a similar policy to the one Pentax just instituted
Add that Ned mentioned Prices will settle and rebate programs will kick in (I'm guessing the prices settling comment was likely a reference to the DA* line which really is overpriced at the current level. I can see the 16-50 dropping to 1099 with $100 off on the rebate program for instance)
Eddie, Do Nikon and Sony follow the MSRP approach or the MAP approach to their price fixing? There is a meaningful difference between the two approaches to price supports for the consumer and I genuinely do not know but have seen both referenced here many times as justification for Pentax taking the MSRP approach.
04-20-2012, 05:33 AM   #291
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AFAIK Sony's latest policy is the same as pentax. the trick with these policies is ensuring the MSRP is a realistic price. that has been the error at Pentax IMO. OTOH by having the ridiculous MSRP on the DA* currently when they correct it people will feel better about a price that would have still caused the reaction we see now so maybe it's a smart (if manipulative) move
04-20-2012, 05:36 AM   #292
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
AFAIK Sony's latest policy is the same as pentax. the trick with these policies is ensuring the MSRP is a realistic price. that has been the error at Pentax IMO. OTOH by having the ridiculous MSRP on the DA* currently when they correct it people will feel better about a price that would have still caused the reaction we see now so maybe it's a smart (if manipulative) move
I'm certain you are right on both counts - that the fanboys will see it as a benevolent move by His Holiness Ned AND that it is incredibly manipulative.

Does Nikon also take the MSRP route or did they go with Minimum Advertised Pricing?
04-20-2012, 05:47 AM   #293
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I think they were running a MAP (which certainly looks to be the MSRP), but have strengthened it (they do have their MSRP at the correct pricing though I think) If you look the Nikon stuff no longer has the add to cart option to see lower prices either (which was really the retailer manipulating the policy IMO)
Someone here did manage to get a lower price from adorama the other day by emailing them - not on a DA* but a 55-300)
My view is that the policy will shake itself out over the next few months settling at higher prices (even after rebates) than before but at prices that are competitive. Along with that I think the response from the Forum will probably get the warranties on lenses improved (Generally lenses are pretty highly reliable so changing the warranty to 2 to 5 years really isn't a high cost thing and it certainly would make people more comfortable with SDM which for all we know has been fixed - japanese companies aren't known for going public on issues like that the sensor stains on the K5 were an anomaly from a response standpoint)

04-20-2012, 05:48 AM   #294
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
OTOH by having the ridiculous MSRP on the DA* currently when they correct it people will feel better about a price that would have still caused the reaction we see now so maybe it's a smart (if manipulative) move
QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
I'm certain you are right on both counts - that the fanboys will see it as a benevolent move by His Holiness Ned AND that it is incredibly manipulative.
I don't think it's intentionally manipulative (aside from the natural manipulation of salesmanship). Raising prices is like ripping off an adhesive bandage; better to do the "short, sharp shock" than drag it out as a "slow, painful, continuous process." Further, as any salesman will tell you, temporarily lowering prices (rebates or black fridays) is a good way to drum up business, while constantly raising prices is a good way to kill it.
04-20-2012, 05:56 AM   #295
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
I think they were running a MAP (which certainly looks to be the MSRP), but have strengthened it (they do have their MSRP at the correct pricing though I think) If you look the Nikon stuff no longer has the add to cart option to see lower prices either (which was really the retailer manipulating the policy IMO)
Someone here did manage to get a lower price from adorama the other day by emailing them - not on a DA* but a 55-300)
My view is that the policy will shake itself out over the next few months settling at higher prices (even after rebates) than before but at prices that are competitive. Along with that I think the response from the Forum will probably get the warranties on lenses improved (Generally lenses are pretty highly reliable so changing the warranty to 2 to 5 years really isn't a high cost thing and it certainly would make people more comfortable with SDM which for all we know has been fixed - japanese companies aren't known for going public on issues like that the sensor stains on the K5 were an anomaly from a response standpoint)
MAP is an alternative to MSRP that requires less policing by the company and allows for more meaningful market fluctuations based on real economics of the market. Many makers simply will not allow you to advertise that you are offering their product at a discount, and some add to that limitation that if you do so it may not be for more than X%. This allows the retailers to decide when to have sales, how much to charge - within a range, and so forth, instead of the manufacturer dictating the price.

If Pentax does not see any sales decreases then what incentive do they have to lower prices?
04-20-2012, 06:03 AM   #296
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QuoteOriginally posted by panoguy Quote
I don't think it's intentionally manipulative (aside from the natural manipulation of salesmanship). Raising prices is like ripping off an adhesive bandage; better to do the "short, sharp shock" than drag it out as a "slow, painful, continuous process." Further, as any salesman will tell you, temporarily lowering prices (rebates or black fridays) is a good way to drum up business, while constantly raising prices is a good way to kill it.
Having been in sales a long time I agree. temporary lowering of prices generates good business. you do need however to have the margins there to start with. I also agree the shock is better than a gradual increase, but if you have erred better to err on the high side though as pulling back slightly is then viewed in a better light though.
Constant value pricing is a tough sell (believe me I know I was at Eatons for their failed Everyday Value price experiment). You need to really sell the idea of everyday low prices hard (like walmart does - though they aren't always low priced , and JCP is in the midst of a big push on value pricing)
If the market on your gear is always discounted the value of a sale or rebate program goes out the window. If your regular price is too high the product will never sell between promo periods. that's why I think the US prices will still settle and some pullback will happen
04-20-2012, 06:07 AM   #297
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote

If Pentax does not see any sales decreases then what incentive do they have to lower prices?
none, but I think at the higher end they will see pretty dramatic decreases that will cause some changes.
MAP was around before the laws changed in the US, The change allowing more control seems to have altered MAP programs, making themmore like the Pentax UPP from what I see (Sony is doing the same with their TV right now AFAIK because letting the market set the price has devalued the brand in that arena)
04-20-2012, 10:23 AM   #298
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
MAP was around before the laws changed in the US, The change allowing more control seems to have altered MAP programs, making themmore like the Pentax UPP from what I see (Sony is doing the same with their TV right now AFAIK because letting the market set the price has devalued the brand in that arena)
I think the reason MAP is less prevalent today is because it simply doesn't work with Internet sales.

Back in the day, all advertised prices would be the same, or a flyer might say "Reduced!" You'd never know what the price actually was unless you called or visited multiple stores.

But now, you can prevent your resellers from directly advertising a low price, but then you get silly things like "add to cart to see price," and it only takes five seconds for a prospective customer to do exactly that -- and then to take it out of the cart again.

So the choice today is basically between a unilateral minimum sales price (Canon, Nikon, Sony, now Pentax) or no price management at all (Pentax before).

I have jousted a bit with Docrwm and others in this thread, but I fully agree with him on one point at least: prices for a number of lenses, 16-50 and 50-135 in particular, are shocking and unsustainable. I think there will be considerable downward adjustment at some point. I would have preferred sooner rather than later, but hey, I think we're in a gradual transition as Ricoh figures out how to manage Pentax in the global market.

I think they screwed up the order of things in the US (how about extending that warranty at the same time, or introducing faster service turnaround, or making some other substantive change?), but that's just the opinion of some dude on the Internet.

Last edited by Quicksand; 04-20-2012 at 10:28 AM.
04-20-2012, 11:01 AM   #299
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QuoteOriginally posted by Quicksand Quote
I have jousted a bit with Docrwm and others in this thread, but I fully agree with him on one point at least: prices for a number of lenses, 16-50 and 50-135 in particular, are shocking and unsustainable. I think there will be considerable downward adjustment at some point. I would have preferred sooner rather than later, but hey, I think we're in a gradual transition as Ricoh figures out how to manage Pentax in the global market.

I think they screwed up the order of things in the US

(how about extending that warranty at the same time
I doubt Ricoh would warrant a product held in inventory at the time of their Pentax acquisition, but manufactured under Hoya's quality-control standard. They'd be costing somebody else's crappy QC. Effective warranty "pricing" (costing, really) requires cost-analysis of and investment in quality-controlled manufacturing processes.

Further, we have no idea whether Pentax changed the wholesale prices of these lenses, which would be necessary to recover the cost of the warranty.
or introducing faster service turnaround
They may very well be working on that now, but having outsourced service to C.R.I.S. they can't just magically wave a wand and say, "Faster, please!" Their contract with C.R.I.S. likely has a Service Level Agreement (for the quoted price, we guarantee x days turnaround) and C.R.I.S. has hired and trained a certain nember of Pentax-trained technicians to fulfill that SLA. PRI would need to renegotiate the SLA, reprice it, allocate capital to more parts investory and C.R.I.S would need to hire and train more technicians - none of which can be done in a trice. The aforementioned assumes that they don't plan to reverse course and restart a Pentax-owned Service Facility (my bet, eventually).

Again, Pentax would need to adjust wholesale pricing to pay for this and we have no idea if that has been done.
or making some other substantive change?)
UPP is just one of many substantive changes we will see over coming quarters and years from Pentax Ricoh Imaging, LLC, both in the USA and globally.
but that's just the opinion of some dude on the Internet.
and so is this.
For many weeks I have said that Pentax-USA, having apparently outsourced most corporate functions to a group of contractors (whether forced by Hoya or through an active USA business decision) now has a monumental task before itself to re-establish a full-service division in the USA. Giving Ned and John the benefit of the doubt, Hoya has left them a Gordian Knot to untangle.

It will take IMHO two years to restart all services as corporate-owned operations, or to renegotiate SLA's to a higher standard. We'll see how well Pentax USA implements such a business model change over ensuing quarters, but I suspect they have learned from the response to this first change. I'll give credit where and when credit is due, but I will make no predictions thereto.
04-20-2012, 11:07 AM   #300
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
It will take IMHO two years to restart all services as corporate-owned operations, or to renegotiate SLA's to a higher standard

Two years is a lifetime in any electronics field. If they do not renegotiate their SLA within the next two quarters then Pentax may very well be beyond repair.

I'll give them those two quarters myself. If not I'll shelf my entire Pentax system and look elsewhere
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