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04-22-2012, 05:16 PM   #361
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QuoteOriginally posted by parsons Quote
who's to know that the prices the DA* zoom has dropped to isn't still above the MSRP?
ned did say that the prices would 'settle' at a competitive level...
And who will determine where competitive level is if they are forcing prices for everyone ? Ned will in his unbiased judjment ?

04-22-2012, 05:48 PM - 1 Like   #362
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My head is spinning and I simply do not have the time (or interest) to spend re-reading all posts dealing with posts about posts dealing with Ned's blog, and so on infinitum.

Although you're all free to joust with one another and I understand that no one likes to be misquoted, I will note that it's become hard for me (at least) to gain anything important from this thread given the volume of bickering (or correcting, or correcting corrections, etc.). I am asking you all politely, once, to stop so that I can get back to learning about UPP and Ned's view of it.

Thank you.

PS: This is not aimed at anyone in particular as I can no longer recall who wrote what about whom. Hence my plea.
04-22-2012, 07:16 PM - 1 Like   #363
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If you "don't have time (or interest) to" read these posts, then I'm sure you have the option to stop. If this is a real forum, then the members should be free to speak their mind. This is a critical issue. How members feel about what they have to pay for lenses is very important for Pentax to know. If ANYONE limits this, it would render this forum pointless. Having founded three forums I feel strongly about this.
04-22-2012, 07:28 PM   #364
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Where was the 50-135mm lens 799?

04-22-2012, 07:30 PM   #365
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QuoteOriginally posted by StepOne Quote
Well less asking and more not giving an option on the MSRP prices. So he does not increased prices, but forced retailers to stick with the unrealistic prices nobody was buying at.

The customer had MSRP (high prices) and retailer market price ("normal" prices). MSRP are prices established by Pentax in their Mars laboratory.

Pentax require from all retailers to sell at MSRP. Without having anything to say about, retailers have to increase prices to MSRP.

So the customer have to pay high prices because Pentax has forced retailers to sell at higher prices.

Conclusion: Ned is Pentax customer's best friend in USA!
IOW Pentax have increased prices. What happens in the middle of the supply chain is irrelevant. Mr Ned promised to address CUSTOMERS ( not dealers ) in his blog. He then addressed customers and claimed Pentax haven't increased prices. They have. Ergo, an UNTRUTH
04-22-2012, 08:34 PM - 1 Like   #366
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FYI, some amazon prices have begun to correct;
The FA50 is selling for $349; MSRP: $449
DA*16-50 is selling for $1,039; MSRP: $1,499
DA*50-135 is selling for $1,219; MSRP: $1,599

Some of the others remain at MSRP including the DA35, DA15, and 50-200 but they are priced more in line with competition. Pentax is competitive with the price of their primes, superzooms and f/4 zooms, just not with the DA* zooms. The Pentax DA* zooms need to eventually settle around 1K with occasional rebates to ~ $800.

The only problem with the lineup is that a new DA* zoom is needed if they're hoping to sell a standard zoom for MSRP. $800 for a 16-50 with weatherproofing is fine in isolation but its insulting when factoring in that there are Tokina models for 50% of that price with the same optics. Also, Tamron and Sigma offerings have arguably better optics for 25-50% less. The 50-135 seems to be fair value to me at around $1,000... The Pentax flagship zoom can be more than the Sigma and Tamron but not 3x as much and not with as many optical issues. IMO, they should target 1K.

Lenses to benchmark against:
Canon 17-55 f/2.8 APS-C - $1100
Canon 24-70 FF f/2.8 L - $1600
Canon 24-105 FF f/4 - $950
Sony 16-50 f/2.8 - $800
Nikon 24-70 f/2.8 - $1900
Nikon 17-55 APS-C - $1649
Nikon 24-85 f/2.8-4 - $800

Currently, Nikon costs more than Canon. Comparing Canon to Pentax in terms of lenses prices, the Canon 17-55 is $1100, Pentax MSRP is $1500. Still, the 18-135, 50-200 and primes are competitive.
04-22-2012, 08:47 PM   #367
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sepia1 Quote
If you "don't have time (or interest) to" read these posts, then I'm sure you have the option to stop. If this is a real forum, then the members should be free to speak their mind. This is a critical issue. How members feel about what they have to pay for lenses is very important for Pentax to know. If ANYONE limits this, it would render this forum pointless. Having founded three forums I feel strongly about this.
Actually, glanglois raised an excellent point. If you re-read his post, you'll see that he's pleading for people to discuss the topic, and not get sidetracked with insulting one another, bringing up irrelevant content (WW2? Really?) etc. A forum without direction is a nearly-useless mess.

QuoteOriginally posted by jk333 Quote
FYI, some amazon prices have begun to correct;
The FA50 is selling for $349; MSRP: $449
DA*16-50 is selling for $1,039; MSRP: $1,499
DA*50-135 is selling for $1,219; MSRP: $1,599

<snip>
Hmm, I wonder if this is old stock. B&H prices are still at MSRP. Even after the Pentax price-increase announcement, I noticed that certain lenses were still available thru Amazon at prices similar to what they had been, so I wouldn't be sure this is a market correction.
04-22-2012, 09:15 PM   #368
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
Actually, glanglois raised an excellent point. If you re-read his post, you'll see that he's pleading for people to discuss the topic, and not get sidetracked with insulting one another, bringing up irrelevant content (WW2? Really?) etc. A forum without direction is a nearly-useless mess.



Hmm, I wonder if this is old stock. B&H prices are still at MSRP. Even after the Pentax price-increase announcement, I noticed that certain lenses were still available thru Amazon at prices similar to what they had been, so I wouldn't be sure this is a market correction.
Amazon prices stayed the same for a day or two and then went up to MSRP. Since then they've been fluctuating but generally coming down.

04-23-2012, 06:07 AM   #369
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If Ned didn't moderate th comments on his Blog he'd be a fool, Given how aggressive you seem to be in the posts here I'd remove your posts as well. He is the face of Pentax North America, he certainly isn't going to approve completely negative comments. Her did however approve more low key critical comments and responded to them, which to be honest is more than we should expect. I imagine his blog has been swamped with comments and he is moderating trying to put out answers to the most frequent questions without having it turn into a forum threadlike bitchfest.

your 3 paragraph post is highly negative and leave no room for a reasoned response. but here goes

QuoteQuote:
"You might not see it as a "price increase", but the bottom line is that the price I must pay now is as much as double for a Pentax lens. My bottom line is now I can not afford to purchase Pentax lenses and Sigma now is looking damn good. I had been methodically building up my Pentax gear, but being disabled and on a very limited income I have been priced right out of the Pentax lens market. Besides why should I pay more for a product with an inferior warranty and often inferior performance?
Pentax has not increased the price but asked dealers to meet a Specific sell price (in this they are no different than other manufacturers) Certainly it means an effective price increase, but these are not new prices. I'm sorry it has limited your ability to buy, but there will be promotional periods where it is more affordable for you. Meanwhile as you point out there are alternatives (Sigma and Tamron). They have mentioned that athe warranty is being looked at. - in general he has answered these questions already

QuoteQuote:
If a camera store can not be competitive, why should the customer get the shaft by "subsidizing" their lack of competitiveness. You talk about making the Pentax product more available... I live 166 miles from the nearest camera store, which is in Boise and I'm unable to drive, plus live in a very small town in the mountains.... so how does this help me? So now I not only do I have to pay the same price online, but shipping charges on top of that!
Understand there has been a long standing complaint of lack of B&M stores. It is another channel that reaches a different client. Pricing had deteriorated through lack of control to the point that it needed to be addressed for the good of all the retailers and the brand. They have not pulled out of web retail. and when you buy via the web you don't pay the tax you would in a B&M so the shipping charge is a wash I would think. He has said pricing would still be settling (ie going through an adjustment period)
QuoteQuote:
If it had not been for B&H's fantastic service and prices, prior to this "price increase" I would not have taken the chance on purchasing Pentax in the first place with the often "spotty" quality control issues, along with poor warranty period.

Pentax has lost a customer and I'm sure that I'm not the only one in the same boat! There is no reason for a camera shop to make such a huge profit and it is rewarding both non-competitiveness and greed!"
BH does indeed provide pretty good customer service. Your comments on spotty QC are a bit off the mark. have a look at the complaints on Nikon and Canon and Sony. All brands have issues. As for Warranty Canon and Sony also are only 1 year warranties, Nikon is the odd one out with the longer lens warranty. However Ned has mentioned it is one of the values under review.
I't unfortunate you feel Pentax can no longer meet your needs, but in my view Pentax has a responsibility to meet the needs of the greater public by making the brand more viable and increasing its presence and market share so they can continue to grow the assortment and selection and put the incentive back for 3rd party vendors to provide additional support (by having a larger market that is viable to build for)
You can't honestly expect Ned to approve and answer every comment he has had. He is the President of Pentax US he has responsibilities that come before the Blog. The fact that he mined the comments and tried to answer as many of the questions as possible is admirable AFAIAC

In any case I think we all know you are PO'd he didn't use your comments. You've been a member for 4 posts and they all say the same thing. Perhaps now you can contribute something beyond vitriol to the forum
04-23-2012, 06:32 AM   #370
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I know Ned's post mentioned Hunt's photo in Boston, but a quick check of their site (I'm in Rhode Island) and of the Pentax lenses they list, 12 are out of stock on 'backorder'.
More interestingly the 'backorder' prices for the 16 - 50 and 50 - 135 are $995, not the enforced MSRPs!?!?
04-23-2012, 06:54 AM   #371
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QuoteOriginally posted by jk333 Quote
Currently, Nikon costs more than Canon.
Nikon has a better warranty.
04-23-2012, 07:02 AM   #372
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
Understand there has been a long standing complaint of lack of B&M stores. It is another channel that reaches a different client. Pricing had deteriorated through lack of control to the point that it needed to be addressed for the good of all the retailers and the brand. They have not pulled out of web retail. and when you buy via the web you don't pay the tax you would in a B&M so the shipping charge is a wash I would think. He has said pricing would still be settling (ie going through an adjustment period)
My B&M is a Henry's. They have always stocked a full Pentax line. But the local rep told me that what kept Pentax selling at all was modest price differentials in Pentax's favour; Pentax was less expensive, representing more value.

Without that advantage, Pentax would have far less counter service and much lower sales.

We'll have to see this "settling", but right now, my local guy says he expects to sell much less Pentax because the prices are now "out of line".

Canon, Nikon, and Sony absolutely own the advertising, so if you want your brand notices, you need to offer value, not "my price is the same as the other guys" (but the flash system is ancient, there's no FF upgrade path, no tethering, less lens selection).

The concern here is that Pentax thinks they have a robust enough line tyo compete with Canikon or Sony, but they do not. The Pentax quirks (AA batteries) sometimes made a sale, but other deficits killed as many or more. But Pentax offered a better value, especially with lenses. If that's not the case, what makes Pentax different?
04-23-2012, 07:18 AM   #373
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As was mentioned earlier was the insult of Pentax vs Tokina pricing. Before, the difference in cost was within the bounds of reason. Now, it's absurd.

It's come to the point where it's similar in price to get a D90 and a Tokina 50-135 as compared to the Pentax 50-135 alone!
04-23-2012, 07:18 AM   #374
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The concern here is that Pentax thinks they have a robust enough line tyo compete with Canikon or Sony, but they do not. The Pentax quirks (AA batteries) sometimes made a sale, but other deficits killed as many or more. But Pentax offered a better value, especially with lenses. If that's not the case, what makes Pentax different?
I think the thinking/plan is:

1) The primes are different and/or better; smaller and better build quality with similar optics to the competition.
2) In-body shake reduction for their cameras.
3) Weatherproofing.
4) Value. At MSRP there's not much value but if they settle at around $1,000... that provides value compared to the Nikon and Canon options referenced above. (admittedly the 16-50 is not comparable even at $800; they need a new full frame standard zoom. This seems to be on the road map)

BTW, thanks for the point on warranties between Nikon and Canon. Interesting.
04-23-2012, 07:36 AM   #375
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My post specifically regards high-quality zooms. I had previously owned both the DA* 16-50 and 50-135 which I sold and replaced with the Tamron 28-75 and 70-200 which, for me, are better tools if not noisier and inferior in build quality. The point is that I always rationalized that while Pentax may not have the superior lens selection of Canikon, I always had alternatives in Tamron and Sigma. Certainly others must have come to the same conclusion.

Now this new pricing policy puts the (3) DA* zooms out of price point for many which, in turn, shines a spotlight on alternatives from Tamron and Sigma. I find it very disturbing that those two companies appear to be leaving Pentax behind. Sigma lenses that are forever "coming soon". The new Tamron 24-70/2.8 looks really nice and even comes in non-VC for Sony but nothing for K.

That <and> the unilateral pricing policy makes me feel like I've chosen a stagnant platform. Pentax needs to come out with some exciting news to offset this.
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