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04-24-2012, 05:19 PM   #421
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
I use my DA 11 ltd a lot and like it. I never would have paid $800 for it though.
didn't know they made those

04-24-2012, 07:09 PM   #422
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Bigger Problem

I can only say that it is disingenuous to say that Pentax has not raised prices because they have not changed MSRP. They caused prices to rise and that is the same thing. The argument irritates me because it reminds me of the kind of thing that you hear lawyers say. Even so, what worries me is the extreme change in the market for photography that changes in technology are bringing. First film pretty much disappeared, and now point and shoot cameras are disappearing because they are being replaced by cell phone cameras. The only dedicated cameras I expect to see within a short period will be those that are mid to high end, in other words those that can do things that cell phone cameras can't. When there is this level of change in an industry only those companies that have resources, innovation, and flexibility survive. Look at how many car companies went bankrupt in the 1920's or how many computer and software companies met their fate in the 1980's. And those were in industries that were rapidly expanding. The market for dedicated photographic instruments seems to be flat or shrinking. I really don't know how many or what companies will survive, but I hope that Pentax is among the few. I've been using their products since I bought a K1000 back in the late 70's and I've never been seriously dissatisfied. Far more often I've been extremely pleased. That said, I just ordered a Nikon D3200 to replace my K-x.
04-24-2012, 07:28 PM   #423
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom Lucas Quote
I just ordered a Nikon D3200 to replace my K-x.
So you joined, made a post, then a long impassioned post to tell us how upset you are at yourself that you left Pentax a month too soon?
04-24-2012, 10:56 PM   #424
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So you joined, made a post, then a long impassioned post to tell us how  upset you are at yourself that you left Pentax a month too soon?
* I've hardly left Pentax. I currently own 18 35mm slrs, a 645 medium format camera, two Pentax dslrs and enough Pentax glass that if melted down could glaze a cathedral. The market figures are crazy, however. Canon has a market capitalization of $55 billion. I don't know how large Nikon itself is, but it's part of Mitsubishi. Pentax was just sold for $125 million. Talk about David and Goliath! The only bright spot is that Ricoh has a $13 billion enterpise value and is owned (55%) by Hitachi. Ricoh, however, has a debt load larger than its market cap and too many employees. Its stock is down 20% in the last year. Buying a Nikon is just hedging. I might add that, as much as I love their equipment, Pentax has a 1.5% global share of the digital camera market.

04-24-2012, 11:25 PM   #425
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom Lucas Quote
Pentax was just sold for $125 million.
This is just an estimate of some Nikkei business analyst, afaik we don't know the real figure, nor if it represent the real value of Pentax.
And the 1.5% figure... do you really care about how many razor-thin margins point&shoot they make? That's strange, because you also said they're disappearing
04-25-2012, 04:22 AM   #426
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom Lucas Quote
The market for dedicated photographic instruments seems to be flat or shrinking. .

The market is increasing. Never before have been sold so many (D)SLR's as now. It is the market for causual photography that is in change, but it is increasing even more. People photograph much more now than ever before...
04-25-2012, 05:07 AM   #427
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
The market is increasing. Never before have been sold so many (D)SLR's as now. It is the market for causual photography that is in change, but it is increasing even more. People photograph much more now than ever before...
Exactly right. Please see: Still in the frame, the camera defies smartphone onslaught | Reuters
04-25-2012, 06:38 AM   #428
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Pentax is no doubt a tiny player......and getting back to the topic...how does drastically increasing prices help in gaining an edge in the marketplace?
If you buy the line about Pentax getting back in B&M stores and carried by Mom & Pop camera shops, then I would love to hear from anyone in America that can report seeing Pentax products where they weren't a year ago? I think it is more likely you will see more missing from where they were a year ago.
I haven't seen any Kia Dealers doubling their prices to pull in in more business......that's not how they got where they are today, is it?

Something smells bad about this entire price increase....rotten, in fact. I am more worried about Ricoh's way of thinking than I am about the price increase......I thought Hoya was bad for Pentax....could it be Ricoh will be even worse?
Regards!

04-25-2012, 07:09 AM   #429
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
Pentax is no doubt a tiny player......and getting back to the topic...how does drastically increasing prices help in gaining an edge in the marketplace?
If you buy the line about Pentax getting back in B&M stores and carried by Mom & Pop camera shops, then I would love to hear from anyone in America that can report seeing Pentax products where they weren't a year ago? I think it is more likely you will see more missing from where they were a year ago.
I haven't seen any Kia Dealers doubling their prices to pull in in more business......that's not how they got where they are today, is it?

Something smells bad about this entire price increase....rotten, in fact. I am more worried about Ricoh's way of thinking than I am about the price increase......I thought Hoya was bad for Pentax....could it be Ricoh will be even worse?
Regards!
Well I don't live in the USA so what you guys get up to over there isn't my business really. In Europe, Pentax prices are still pretty up and down. For example, at the moment anyway I can buy a DA* 200mm for a lot less on Amazon or from an official Pentax dealer in Germany than I can from the main dealer in the UK. There's also something which people haven't paid enough attention to, imho: it's one thing to claim that a dealer or chain is now stocking Pentax and quite another thing to get them to stock Pentax actually in their stores. They might take a consignment but end up leaving most of it in a warehouse because they figure they are really destined to be sold off online and not face to face. Or they don't actually have enough stock to populate their shops beyond a couple of flagship stores because stock is constrained generally, perhaps because of limited availability from Pentax or because Pentax is choosing to send better supplies to other countries where the profits are higher. There is a degree of misinformation here anyway. Dealers could be pulling the wool to get better terms out of the local Pentax outfit and they in turn could be pulling the wool to cover themselves with Ricoh HQ against a fall in sales. When/if that happens they can simply say "You ordered us to enforce recommended prices in some countries and raise them in others but you never gave us the investment in sales and marketing to help selling through at those new prices. Of course sales have tanked. Waddya expect, etc." Who knows but it happens every day.

For myself, I tend to think the reason behind all of this is pretty simple: when you buy a company you want to get your money back as soon as possible. Raising prices across the board is a way of doing that which is as old as the hills. It may not work, but hey maybe you were over-optimistic about your purchase to begin with. People can read too much into takeovers and all the talk around them. These are big international corporations and maybe they just want pay back (especially if the accounts are carrying debt the size of Ricoh's and you've just realized that something like the new Nikon D3200 could tear a big hole in your plans to use a more modest sensor in your entry- and mid-level products).

Last edited by mecrox; 04-25-2012 at 07:16 AM.
04-25-2012, 07:38 AM   #430
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
If you buy the line about Pentax getting back in B&M stores and carried by Mom & Pop camera shops, then I would love to hear from anyone in America that can report seeing Pentax products where they weren't a year ago? I think it is more likely you will see more missing from where they were a year ago.
Please explain how implementing UPP now could start having an effect one year in the past?
04-25-2012, 07:39 AM   #431
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Well I don't live in the USA so what you guys get up to over there isn't my business really. In Europe, Pentax prices are still pretty up and down. For example, at the moment anyway I can buy a DA* 200mm for a lot less on Amazon or from an official Pentax dealer in Germany than I can from the main dealer in the UK. There's also something which people haven't paid enough attention to, imho: it's one thing to claim that a dealer or chain is now stocking Pentax and quite another thing to get them to stock Pentax actually in their stores. They might take a consignment but end up leaving most of it in a warehouse because they figure they are really destined to be sold off online and not face to face. Or they don't actually have enough stock to populate their shops beyond a couple of flagship stores because stock is constrained generally, perhaps because of limited availability from Pentax or because Pentax is choosing to send better supplies to other countries where the profits are higher. There is a degree of misinformation here anyway. Dealers could be pulling the wool to get better terms out of the local Pentax outfit and they in turn could be pulling the wool to cover themselves with Ricoh HQ against a fall in sales. When/if that happens they can simply say "You ordered us to enforce recommended prices in some countries and raise them in others but you never gave us the investment in sales and marketing to help selling through at those new prices. Of course sales have tanked. Waddya expect, etc." Who knows but it happens every day.

For myself, I tend to think the reason behind all of this is pretty simple: when you buy a company you want to get your money back as soon as possible. Raising prices across the board is a way of doing that which is as old as the hills. It may not work, but hey maybe you were over-optimistic about your purchase to begin with. People can read too much into takeovers and all the talk around them. These are big international corporations and maybe they just want pay back (especially if the accounts are carrying debt the size of Ricoh's and you've just realized that something like the new Nikon D3200 could tear a big hole in your plans to use a more modest sensor in your entry- and mid-level products).
We have discussed the issue of the volume of Pentax stocks coming to the U.S. for sale and wonder if they are going to increase the levels. As far as the higher prices, according to Ned, that isn't going to Pentax. It is allegedly going to the dealers.
04-25-2012, 07:46 AM   #432
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
We have discussed the issue of the volume of Pentax stocks coming to the U.S. for sale and wonder if they are going to increase the levels. As far as the higher prices, according to Ned, that isn't going to Pentax. It is allegedly going to the dealers.
I was talking about Pentax worldwide and not just about Pentax USA. I realize that wholesale prices in the USA are static for now but that's not true of other places and certainly not in Europe where - not sure - Pentax may sell more kit than in the USA. Wholesale (i.e. Pentax) rises here have upped some lenses by around 30% in the past few weeks. It seems as if at the mo, the USA is not a big source of revenue for Pentax. I'm sceptical of the idea that worldwide Ricoh is treading water with prices or even taking a loss now to make more later, though this may be true of the USA where declining performance mean special measures are required (i.e. US prices are being upped to nearer a worldwide average but the difference, for now, is going to the retail trade in the hope this will kickstart better Pentax representation).

Last edited by mecrox; 04-25-2012 at 08:03 AM.
04-25-2012, 07:47 AM   #433
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QuoteOriginally posted by dgcom Quote
Looks like Ned approved most of the comments and also responded to many of them directly...

Anyone interested - should read his responses...

dgcom's post was accepted ~ 2 hrs ago. That makes 2 he has there.

QuoteQuote:
dgcom (Twitter) responded:

Hi, Ned. Appreciate that you approved all comments (even critical ones) and even found time to respond to them.I guess, you have better statistics on the requests for Pentax gear in retail compared to online, so I hope you know what you are doing.
But if people, who shop online, see significant price increase (relative to B&H, let's use it as "gold standard") it will make really bad impression...

I resubmitted mine yesterday and it wasn't approved. I asked about sales of FA ltd vs. DA ltd at Adorama and B&H since the mandated MSRP. I also asked if Pentax would ever replace the FA* 200/4 macro with something like a D FA 200/4 WR macro.

I am suspecting dgcom as a Pentax troll. 5 posts since 2008. I don't expect Ned to approve all posts. But he has let posts like this get through. When he approves a post with the very first sentence stating all comments were approved, even critical ones, I really have to wonder about Ned's ulterior motives by doing so.

Last edited by Blue; 04-25-2012 at 07:52 AM.
04-25-2012, 08:14 AM   #434
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
. . . though this may be true of the USA where declining performance mean special measures are required (i.e. US prices are being upped to nearer a worldwide average but the difference, for now, is going to the retail trade in the hope this will kickstart better Pentax representation).
The trouble with this logic is that the 2 biggest Pentax dealers in the U.S.A. are arguably Adorama and B&H. This strategy actually penalizes them.
04-25-2012, 09:20 AM - 1 Like   #435
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Please explain how implementing UPP now could start having an effect one year in the past?
What I said is that shops that might have carried a few Pentax products a year ago are more likely to not carry them now....any smart Mom & Pop knows that if you weren't selling a DA* 50-135 at $800....you are not more likely to sell it at $1600. Profit does not matter if you don't have sales.....and price increases only increase sales in the minds of those living in some sort of fantasy land. Creating demand should be at the forefront of Richo's plan, not alienating it's base users....which is about all it has left.
A good marketing plan might incorporate the use of Pentax core users, the loyal, the long time users. I can imagine several ways to do this, but none of them include raising prices.
Regards!
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