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05-02-2012, 11:13 AM   #526
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tanzer Quote
+1.

Well said.
Yes, I agree. Change is needed. In the words of Albert Einstein "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

I'm certainly willing to sit back and give this a chance.

05-02-2012, 12:18 PM   #527
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QuoteOriginally posted by areidjr Quote
Yes, I agree. Change is needed. In the words of Albert Einstein "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
Some people might argue that Brick&Mortar stores are insane by that definition.

YMMV, of course.
05-02-2012, 01:02 PM   #528
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Some people might argue that Brick&Mortar stores are insane by that definition.

YMMV, of course.

Of course, they haven't done Brick & Mortar with UPP until now. Unless people that are unfamiliar with the brand can hold and try a camera, the market is pretty much constrained to current users and those that will but a product sight unseen. Most entry level users go to a B&M store and look at the camera, ask questions, hold it & try it. If they can't touch a Pentax they will be sold what IS available that they can put their hands on.

I tried to get my brother in-law to go for a Pentax and I had him pretty well convinced, noting that we could share lenses, etc. and that I had nothing but good experience with Pentax. He then went out to look at cameras and , since no one stocked Pentax, He got sold on a Nikon. Not necessarily a bad choice, but he would have left with a Pentax had they been on the shelf.

So, yes, YMMV
05-02-2012, 01:20 PM   #529
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QuoteOriginally posted by areidjr Quote
Of course, they haven't done Brick & Mortar with UPP until now. Unless people that are unfamiliar with the brand can hold and try a camera, the market is pretty much constrained to current users and those that will but a product sight unseen. Most entry level users go to a B&M store and look at the camera, ask questions, hold it & try it. If they can't touch a Pentax they will be sold what IS available that they can put their hands on.

I tried to get my brother in-law to go for a Pentax and I had him pretty well convinced, noting that we could share lenses, etc. and that I had nothing but good experience with Pentax. He then went out to look at cameras and , since no one stocked Pentax, He got sold on a Nikon. Not necessarily a bad choice, but he would have left with a Pentax had they been on the shelf.

So, yes, YMMV
and this is where the program makes sense. if it can get entry level or better in dealers there will be growth from people not familiar with the brand.it will need to be coupled with a big marketing push to work though (and with the insane number of rumours on upcoming product indeed I imagine a bog marketing push is in the works too)

05-02-2012, 01:57 PM   #530
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
For the last five years, Pentax has been "competing" on the internet, with lower prices and no local availability and it hasn't worked. I don't know that this will work, but certainly that was unsuccessful.
This may be where the real problem is...demand for Pentax is low compared to other brands. A marketing strategy to change that would be very expensive and take years to reap results. It's possible, but I don't see where Ricoh has anywhere near the funds to launch such a campaign. Samsung started slow, had a great plan, and was backed by one of the largest (and richest) corporations in the world...now their products are among the top sellers in electronics. Still, that took years to develop....and with current strong competition in the camera market, I'm not sure Pentax has years even if they could launch such a plan.

I'm not saying they are doomed...but I am saying they are in trouble. I don't see any answers here, and I don't claim to have any, but someone had better come up with something sooner than later.

I also sense a little "American resentment" from a few, that note America is not a market of great interest to Pentax. If that is indeed the case, then Pentax must be smarter than Nikon, Canon, Sony, Fuji, and the entire nation of China, that built a booming economy off of American buyers. A huge part of that economy was on sales through Walmart and similar "Discount Stores"...it was not by raising prices or setting prices...it was by letting the marketplace set the price. That's how it is done in America, and I doubt that Pentax will change that with their strategy. Their effect on the American gross economy is too small a figure to be computed.maybe somewhere in the range of .0000000000000000001%...or less. America is still the world's largest economy...and Americans spend like crazy....but apparently no one has informed Pentax.

Regards
05-02-2012, 02:05 PM   #531
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
This may be where the real problem is...demand for Pentax is low compared to other brands. A marketing strategy to change that would be very expensive and take years to reap results. It's possible, but I don't see where Ricoh has anywhere near the funds to launch such a campaign. Samsung started slow, had a great plan, and was backed by one of the largest (and richest) corporations in the world...now their products are among the top sellers in electronics. Still, that took years to develop....and with current strong competition in the camera market, I'm not sure Pentax has years even if they could launch such a plan.

I'm not saying they are doomed...but I am saying they are in trouble. I don't see any answers here, and I don't claim to have any, but someone had better come up with something sooner than later.

I also sense a little "American resentment" from a few, that note America is not a market of great interest to Pentax. If that is indeed the case, then Pentax must be smarter than Nikon, Canon, Sony, Fuji, and the entire nation of China, that built a booming economy off of American buyers. A huge part of that economy was on sales through Walmart and similar "Discount Stores"...it was not by raising prices or setting prices...it was by letting the marketplace set the price. That's how it is done in America, and I doubt that Pentax will change that with their strategy. Their effect on the American gross economy is too small a figure to be computed.maybe somewhere in the range of .0000000000000000001%...or less. America is still the world's largest economy...and Americans spend like crazy....but apparently no one has informed Pentax.

Regards
you realise Rupert NIKON has an even more stringent UPP policy, that has been in place a lot longer.
05-02-2012, 02:17 PM   #532
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But if it's Nikon, it's OK - a great idea, even
So what if it will take years? How could anyone expect instant or very fast results (though, some people around here seems to think the effect should have been visible well before UPP was implemented)?
Afaik, America is not the biggest camera market in the world; it was surpassed by Europe few years back - I doubt that was reversed. It's of course a market that should not be ignored, but with some particularities that makes representing Pentax quite difficult (i.e. low density)

ElJamoquio, funny but wrong. The whole point is that they're changing things in order to make them being in B&M work; thus the insanity quote is misapplied. 1000% they're not trying the same thing - or maybe you can tell me for how many decades they had the recently introduced UPP in place?
05-02-2012, 03:44 PM   #533
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
Nikon, Canon, Sony, Fuji,
All of which have Unilateral Pricing Programs. Believe it or not, more people will buy Pentax (eventually) - BECAUSE THE PRICES ARE HIGHER - but the value will be better and the cost will be lower, as has been explained.

05-02-2012, 04:29 PM   #534
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
you realise Rupert NIKON has an even more stringent UPP policy, that has been in place a lot longer.
At least I can go put my hands on a unilaterally priced Canon 5D MKII or III, and 60D, or Nikon D7000 or D700. I can't do that for a unilaterally priced K-5 or K-01. For someone that isn't familiar with Pentax, that makes it a bit of a gamble when they have to order it at MSRP. Plus, Canon and Nikon have various rebate. However, I hate dealing with rebates unless it is the instant kind. They have taken away a competitive advantage they had. The gray market b.s. could have been shored up in other ways. Also, if they didn't want the U.S. sellers shipping over seas, they could have addressed that issue instead of going with the UPP. Its ironic that that spells up.


QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
So they say. He who hesitates is lost. I learned that the time Hoya raised the prices.
For some of us who have been considering updating our dSLR bodies, it puts us at a disadvantage. We know some of what Nikon and Canon have coming, but nadda out of Pentax but speculation and guessing. Sometimes hesitating is a tactically prudent move. I have waited this long, I can wait until next summer. That will give some of these new sensors time to shake out. As far as lenses go, I don't see anything happening for a longer period as far as Pentax goes. May as well wait and see how full frame comes a long (Pentax and Nikon) instead of paying the current msrp on a DA 15 ltd or DA 14.

Last edited by Blue; 05-02-2012 at 04:40 PM.
05-02-2012, 04:37 PM   #535
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Interestingly, there apparently is a rebate on the K-5 for the Eurozone countries.......Nada Aqui.

Ed
05-02-2012, 06:24 PM   #536
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
you realise Rupert NIKON has an even more stringent UPP policy, that has been in place a lot longer.
I do realize this Eddie, but Nikon is operating from a position of great strength....Canon too. I would love to see you guys turn out to be right, but I look around... on this forum and elsewhere, and don't see where this has made many want to stick fast with Pentax or buy more of their products....have you...honestly?

I think a lot will depend on the next major flagship body in determining how Pentax will be viewed by many current owners. If it is a solid machine, free of the glitches that plagued the K5, and is competitive with the competition in performance, then already having an investment in Pentax might make it worth the new prices, and worth hanging on. If not, I think a lot of shooters will bail out and take their losses by moving to a new system. As for new shooters, I see little reason for them to choose Pentax given the strength of the other major brands. I didn't say I would agree with that necessarily, but if offered a buy back on every dime on your current Pentax investment, would you go back with it again, given the current atmosphere, or switch brands? "Honestly" is the key word. If you even hesitate on that, then you can imagine that a new buyer would hardly find reason to consider Pentax.......which is back to the real reason they are not in B& M stores currently.

I think I am leaving this conversation, it is not my desire to bash Pentax...I love my K5 and have generally been a happy customer, but I am concerned about what I am seeing...and what I am not seeing...from Ricoh. I might add that my business is even less important than most, I have a good supply of lenses, and need little added to make me happy. My hope is that Ricoh hits a home run, and in a year you guys can laugh me off of here as being dead wrong.
I hope I have not offended anyone, I value your opinions even when I don't agree...that's what makes this a great place!
Best Regards!
05-02-2012, 07:39 PM   #537
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
you realise Rupert NIKON has an even more stringent UPP policy, that has been in place a lot longer.
maybe, but have any of NIkon's prominent employees even stated that they haven't raised prices when they have?
05-02-2012, 07:52 PM   #538
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
When you start seeing Pentax products in real Camera Stores in America (what "real" camera stores are left) and in the same supply you can get on the internet, then I will believe. When you can do that, you can also tell me about the flying cows....because that is even more likely.

If Pentax has any real chance to compete, it will be on the internet. Camera Stores are heavily slanted toward Canon or Nikon...or both. Somehow, you are thinking that Ford would want to start carrying Chevrolets in its showrooms to compete......and at the same prices? Shop owners carry what sells, what has the best and broadest advertising, and what is in demand. Increasing prices on a slow selling product never increases sales......just in fairy tales spun out by the "believers".
Regards
Actually shop owners carry what they can get the best margins on, given they have higher overheads than cyber-retailers. This is exactly why Pentax has raised it's prices.

The problem with bricks and mortar shops is that they are becoming less and less a fraction of the market as more and more people buy online. Pentax is foolish if it thinks it's going to do well by raising prices to give hands on shops a decent margin at the expense of making it's online business decline.

Rupert is right, it simply has to compete in the Internet. Like it or not a huge amount of customers exploit the bricks and mortar shop to handle the goods, thank the sales assistant for their time, say they will "think about it" and then go home and order it online for less.
05-02-2012, 08:17 PM   #539
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Old buyer of camera can buy on the internet . New buyer of equipment probably want to see it before buying
Pentax try to attract new buyer
05-02-2012, 09:03 PM   #540
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QuoteOriginally posted by Smeggypants Quote
Actually shop owners carry what they can get the best margins on, given they have higher overheads than cyber-retailers. This is exactly why Pentax has raised it's prices.

The problem with bricks and mortar shops is that they are becoming less and less a fraction of the market as more and more people buy online. Pentax is foolish if it thinks it's going to do well by raising prices to give hands on shops a decent margin at the expense of making it's online business decline.

Rupert is right, it simply has to compete in the Internet. Like it or not a huge amount of customers exploit the bricks and mortar shop to handle the goods, thank the sales assistant for their time, say they will "think about it" and then go home and order it online for less.
And if they cannot buy it online for less? Will they shrug and buy a third television instead of photo gear?

I don't think that even the top ten manufacturers adopting UPP with good margins for retailers will bring back the small, personal camera shop in the US. That model lived on consumables (film, paper, chemicals) and services in any case.

But UPP may prevent further decline and perhaps, with some luck, allow small local/regional chains to expand inventory and perhaps open a few new outlets. Might even be enough that big box stores add some display area.

Moving tangentially, it will be fun to watch the ubiquitous camera phone users as some of them dig deeper into photography. If even one in 30 develops an interest, we may see an injection of disposable income that will bring many good things to market. Having access to no real research, it seems to me that many develop that interest via an early artistic bent or via a new interest in family. (Children have that effect.) But the camera phone gives us a whole new avenue to catch a new generation of potential photographers.

I know all this has been written but I wanted to break the cycle on some threads of "Pentax did something stupid again and is doomed!" followed by "No FF? I'm leaving!".
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