Lens prices and our channel strategy in the U.S. - Ned Responses

Kunzite · 06-11-2012, 05:58 AM

You can throw any words you like at the people who actually do the job; but they won't have any weight.

Class A · 06-11-2012, 06:19 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Unsinkable II

....Pentax managed not just to put their foot in their mouth, but stab themselves in both eyes with the shoelaces. Add to that the Ned Bunnell blogging fiasco and it looks like Fisher Price being run by their user base...

Your post gets my vote for funniest post this month.

Class A · 06-11-2012, 06:20 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

You can throw any words you like at the people who actually do the job; but they won't have any weight.

You could argue that said people are not doing their job.

ElJamoquio · 06-11-2012, 07:04 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

And what makes you so sure that was their/a strategy?

One of the things I said was 'make retailers believe' they required MSRP or near-MSRP prices. I'm sure that's what happened because, in a competitive marketplace, retailers simultaneously raised their prices to near-MSRP. We can argue whether it was 'actual strategy' or whether it was 'poor communication to dealers' but in either case that's Pentax's fault.

Originally posted by Kunzite

And about the reasons, there can be quite a few but I'm only guessing here. One possibility would be that they simply had to start implementing UPP before having the new prices established,

Then wait. The backlash and two near-zero-sales-months was not worth the price increase. Remember that, allegedly, all of this 'extra profit' went to (brick and mortar) retailers. How much did B+M benefit from zero sales? So who benefited, again?

Originally posted by Kunzite

Two months with high prices and low sales could've been an acceptable compromise.

I disagree. Recall that this 'two months' coincided with the best two-months ever for people who wanted to upgrade from APS-C to FF.

I feel like Pentax lens sales dropped considerably (70+% for affected lenses) and people (who's lenses had recently appreciated in value) could get 110% of what they paid for a lens back out of the used marketplace. There was a large uptick in people who appeared to be dumping entire systems on the marketplace.

Originally posted by Kunzite

Anyway, neither of us had any experience in implementing UPP country-level, so we can't know how difficult can it be.

Part of leadership is knowing not to implement half a strategy.

**monochrome** · 06-11-2012, 07:21 AM

While I am a skeptic considering PRIAC's ability to professionally implement the following, consider this possibility (remembering Ricoh ahs only owned Pentax for 8 months and brand reconstruction can take years - perhaps Ricoh has a three-year plan):

One of the goals of UPP - perhaps the most important goal - could have been to control the US Gray Market product sales by marginal "dealers"
1. Dealers who are judged in violation of UPP will not receive any shipments in the future. Dealers who are judged incompliance will receive assistance managing their inventories through use of PRIAC-approved sales and temporary price management.
Another goal of UPP could have been to adjust PRICL's global inventory of lenses in preparation for upcoming new camera body introductions
1. Perhaps PRICL wanted to maintain sufficient inventory of DA* and certain other lenses while they change over thier manufacturing facilites to building stock of lenses soon to be introduced. Perhaps now PRICL wishes to maintain inventory of certain FA* lenses for purposes related to a somewhat later product introduction.
A third goal of UPP might have been battlefield preparation in advance of new product distribution at new, more upscale mass-market retailers.
1. A major chain whose primary color is red and the K30, revitialized K-01 (and associated DA lenses) come to mind.
A fourth, longer-term goal of UPP might ahve been to put larger retail chains such as Hunt's or Creve Couer Camera in St. Louis that, while B&M support is further down the line, begin thinking about how we can regain distribution in your spaces.
1. While we have discussed this, we can't know the timing - retail channel B&M distribution requires a LOT of sales people, seminars,service, "spoilage support" (returned saleable merchandise) - but I can't see PRIAC having already hired enough channel support people to begin this stage of a plan yet

Etc. We cannot know the plan. The implementation sure does look and feel inept, but what do we expect, instant Nikon after years of neglect?

guinnessman · 06-11-2012, 07:45 AM

Camera stores a dying breed...even the big box electronics stores are struggling, chiefly, Best Buy.

While I think going after Target isn't a bad goal, they aren't going to be carrying DA* or Limited lenses any time soon (when I go into my local Target, they carry bodies like the T3i or D5100 and related consumer zooms), so I couldn't see the logic in charging C&N prices for the 16-50 or 50-135 as examples, especially given their QC track record, and those have to be ordered online anyhow.

And in the meantime, it also caused all the used prices to go up.

It was just an odd thing for a company with as little as marketshare as Pentax, to try and take lenses that weren't selling all that much before, and think they could make something work by raising the pricing to near MSRP, but without any added benefit.

**interested_observer** · 06-11-2012, 09:08 PM

As the old adage goes - people who know what is going on aren't talking, the rest of us aren't buying.... A Mexican Standoff.

Whatever the intended consequences were, it looks like Plan A is out the window and Plan B is now in effect.

I have not had the time, however I wonder how the prices stack up against C&N's prices as compared to both the original, the old new and the new new prices?

jmg257 · 06-12-2012, 06:46 AM

Originally posted by guinnessman

Camera stores a dying breed...even the big box electronics stores are struggling, chiefly, Best Buy.

While I think going after Target isn't a bad goal, they aren't going to be carrying DA* or Limited lenses any time soon (when I go into my local Target, they carry bodies like the T3i or D5100 and related consumer zooms), so I couldn't see the logic in charging C&N prices for the 16-50 or 50-135 as examples, especially given their QC track record, and those have to be ordered online anyhow.

And in the meantime, it also caused all the used prices to go up.

It was just an odd thing for a company with as little as marketshare as Pentax, to try and take lenses that weren't selling all that much before, and think they could make something work by raising the pricing to near MSRP, but without any added benefit.

Remember - you heard it here last!

Camera stores a dying breed...

Why do you think that is?

guinnessman · 06-12-2012, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by jmg257

Remember - you heard it here last!

Camera stores a dying breed...

Why do you think that is?

Can't compete with online, both in lower prices and lower overhead. That, and essentially the death of film (loss of selling supplies, processing, prints).

Additionally, with all the review sites, I feel like a more informed shopper, I don't really have to physically hold a camera to see if it will work for me or not, or ask a salesman what he thinks I should look out for; reviews already have done most of that for me. That, and as a Pentax user, I'm used to buying sight unseen online anyhow.

I think what's hurting electronics stores like Best Buy. People just go in there to look at a product, but unless there's a sale, they can order it online for less. I realize the UPP is to protect retail, but as a consumer, I don't necessarily want to prop up B&M because the market is changing and they can't compete, and in the case of a lot of camera stores, it's already done and gone.

Target and Walmart thrive, but they do a bit of everything under one roof, so electronics just a tiny part.

Kunzite · 06-12-2012, 08:37 AM

No review can say how a camera would fit my hands, or a pair of shoes my feet. I would also like to (briefly) try out cameras I have no intention buying. B&M stores would gladly let me to do it, how about a website?
For me, camera stores are absolutely necessary.

By the way, I thought Pentax not being in B&M stores was a big issue? This somehow changed after 1st April, and now B&M are dying anyway so why bother

Blue · 06-12-2012, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by jmg257

Remember - you heard it here last!

Camera stores a dying breed...

Why do you think that is?

Corporate and Property taxes don't help with keeping the over head down, that is for certain. That is over and above the cost of real estate and insurance and the power bill just to stay in business. The local B&M quit carrying Canon/Nikon 2 years ago and started carrying Sony exclusively a year ago. Ritz folded during the bankruptcy so that makes this the only store in 100 miles of me. They do C41 processing and sell some darkroom supplies. However, the biggest business is printing etc.

Kunzite · 06-12-2012, 09:08 AM

OTOH where I live, the biggest camera store moved to a new location - central (thus expensive), more or less B&H sized.
They started carrying Pentax as well, though I'd rather buy directly from our Pentax distributor (let's say, out of habit).

mee · 06-12-2012, 07:19 PM

I've never stepped foot into a camera shop.. and probably never will. As already mentioned.. there are a wealth of review sites, videos, and photographs of products to get a very nice feel for what you are buying. Actually much more than I suspect one would get by stepping into the store for 10-20 minutes. The reviews online do much more with the cameras than anyone typically would be allowed to do with them in a store. Plus the pricing is MUCH more competitive online.

Large electronics stores in the USA are feeling the effect of online shopping... Circuit City (large electronics store chain) went bankrupt and Bestbuy (their competitor) is in a very tough spot financially. They realized most people go into the stores go to try a product and then leave to purchase online because the pricing is much better.

I've only bought Pentax (and related) products online, after much debate and research.. and I've yet to be disappointed with any of the purchases.

aleonx3 · 06-12-2012, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by kenafein

I suppose b&h could just be liquidating its pentax stock for what it will sell for. No sense keeping boxes on a shelf. That may mean they don't plan to get more stock from pentax.

How do you know (just wondering)?... I just got the 18-135mm lens hood from b&h which has been out-of-stock for a while, and they just got a new shipment; I waited for over a month.

aleonx3 · 06-12-2012, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by mee

I've never stepped foot into a camera shop.. and probably never will. As already mentioned.. there are a wealth of review sites, videos, and photographs of products to get a very nice feel for what you are buying. Actually much more than I suspect one would get by stepping into the store for 10-20 minutes. The reviews online do much more with the cameras than anyone typically would be allowed to do with them in a store. Plus the pricing is MUCH more competitive online.

Large electronics stores in the USA are feeling the effect of online shopping... Circuit City (large electronics store chain) went bankrupt and Bestbuy (their competitor) is in a very tough spot financially. They realized most people go into the stores go to try a product and then leave to purchase online because the pricing is much better.

I've only bought Pentax (and related) products online, after much debate and research.. and I've yet to be disappointed with any of the purchases.

Make sense to me.. the buying habits in North America are like "try-and-return"... traditional B&M shops can not compete with online retailers (for pricing and overhead) except for large distributors like b&h where they can move large volumes via online sales as well.

06-11-2012, 07:21 AM	#695
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	While I am a skeptic considering PRIAC's ability to professionally implement the following, consider this possibility (remembering Ricoh ahs only owned Pentax for 8 months and brand reconstruction can take years - perhaps Ricoh has a three-year plan): One of the goals of UPP - perhaps the most important goal - could have been to control the US Gray Market product sales by marginal "dealers" Dealers who are judged in violation of UPP will not receive any shipments in the future. Dealers who are judged incompliance will receive assistance managing their inventories through use of PRIAC-approved sales and temporary price management. Another goal of UPP could have been to adjust PRICL's global inventory of lenses in preparation for upcoming new camera body introductions Perhaps PRICL wanted to maintain sufficient inventory of DA* and certain other lenses while they change over thier manufacturing facilites to building stock of lenses soon to be introduced. Perhaps now PRICL wishes to maintain inventory of certain FA* lenses for purposes related to a somewhat later product introduction. A third goal of UPP might have been battlefield preparation in advance of new product distribution at new, more upscale mass-market retailers. A major chain whose primary color is red and the K30, revitialized K-01 (and associated DA lenses) come to mind. A fourth, longer-term goal of UPP might ahve been to put larger retail chains such as Hunt's or Creve Couer Camera in St. Louis that, while B&M support is further down the line, begin thinking about how we can regain distribution in your spaces. While we have discussed this, we can't know the timing - retail channel B&M distribution requires a LOT of sales people, seminars,service, "spoilage support" (returned saleable merchandise) - but I can't see PRIAC having already hired enough channel support people to begin this stage of a plan yet Etc. We cannot know the plan. The implementation sure does look and feel inept, but what do we expect, instant Nikon after years of neglect?

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06-11-2012, 05:58 AM	#691
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	You can throw any words you like at the people who actually do the job; but they won't have any weight.

06-11-2012, 06:19 AM - 1 Like	#692
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by Unsinkable II ....Pentax managed not just to put their foot in their mouth, but stab themselves in both eyes with the shoelaces. Add to that the Ned Bunnell blogging fiasco and it looks like Fisher Price being run by their user base... Your post gets my vote for funniest post this month.

06-11-2012, 06:20 AM	#693
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by Kunzite You can throw any words you like at the people who actually do the job; but they won't have any weight. You could argue that said people are not doing their job.

06-11-2012, 07:04 AM	#694
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by Kunzite And what makes you so sure that was their/a strategy? One of the things I said was 'make retailers believe' they required MSRP or near-MSRP prices. I'm sure that's what happened because, in a competitive marketplace, retailers simultaneously raised their prices to near-MSRP. We can argue whether it was 'actual strategy' or whether it was 'poor communication to dealers' but in either case that's Pentax's fault. Originally posted by Kunzite And about the reasons, there can be quite a few but I'm only guessing here. One possibility would be that they simply had to start implementing UPP before having the new prices established, Then wait. The backlash and two near-zero-sales-months was not worth the price increase. Remember that, allegedly, all of this 'extra profit' went to (brick and mortar) retailers. How much did B+M benefit from zero sales? So who benefited, again? Originally posted by Kunzite Two months with high prices and low sales could've been an acceptable compromise. I disagree. Recall that this 'two months' coincided with the best two-months ever for people who wanted to upgrade from APS-C to FF. I feel like Pentax lens sales dropped considerably (70+% for affected lenses) and people (who's lenses had recently appreciated in value) could get 110% of what they paid for a lens back out of the used marketplace. There was a large uptick in people who appeared to be dumping entire systems on the marketplace. Originally posted by Kunzite Anyway, neither of us had any experience in implementing UPP country-level, so we can't know how difficult can it be. Part of leadership is knowing not to implement half a strategy.

06-11-2012, 07:45 AM	#696
guinnessman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Missoula, MT Posts: 175	Camera stores a dying breed...even the big box electronics stores are struggling, chiefly, Best Buy. While I think going after Target isn't a bad goal, they aren't going to be carrying DA* or Limited lenses any time soon (when I go into my local Target, they carry bodies like the T3i or D5100 and related consumer zooms), so I couldn't see the logic in charging C&N prices for the 16-50 or 50-135 as examples, especially given their QC track record, and those have to be ordered online anyhow. And in the meantime, it also caused all the used prices to go up. It was just an odd thing for a company with as little as marketshare as Pentax, to try and take lenses that weren't selling all that much before, and think they could make something work by raising the pricing to near MSRP, but without any added benefit.

06-11-2012, 09:08 PM	#697
interested_observer Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tumbleweed, Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,707	As the old adage goes - people who know what is going on aren't talking, the rest of us aren't buying.... A Mexican Standoff. Whatever the intended consequences were, it looks like Plan A is out the window and Plan B is now in effect. I have not had the time, however I wonder how the prices stack up against C&N's prices as compared to both the original, the old new and the new new prices?

06-12-2012, 06:46 AM	#698
jmg257 Inactive Account Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 202	Originally posted by guinnessman Camera stores a dying breed...even the big box electronics stores are struggling, chiefly, Best Buy. While I think going after Target isn't a bad goal, they aren't going to be carrying DA* or Limited lenses any time soon (when I go into my local Target, they carry bodies like the T3i or D5100 and related consumer zooms), so I couldn't see the logic in charging C&N prices for the 16-50 or 50-135 as examples, especially given their QC track record, and those have to be ordered online anyhow. And in the meantime, it also caused all the used prices to go up. It was just an odd thing for a company with as little as marketshare as Pentax, to try and take lenses that weren't selling all that much before, and think they could make something work by raising the pricing to near MSRP, but without any added benefit. Remember - you heard it here last! Camera stores a dying breed... Why do you think that is?

06-12-2012, 08:08 AM	#699
guinnessman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Missoula, MT Posts: 175	Originally posted by jmg257 Remember - you heard it here last! Camera stores a dying breed... Why do you think that is? Can't compete with online, both in lower prices and lower overhead. That, and essentially the death of film (loss of selling supplies, processing, prints). Additionally, with all the review sites, I feel like a more informed shopper, I don't really have to physically hold a camera to see if it will work for me or not, or ask a salesman what he thinks I should look out for; reviews already have done most of that for me. That, and as a Pentax user, I'm used to buying sight unseen online anyhow. I think what's hurting electronics stores like Best Buy. People just go in there to look at a product, but unless there's a sale, they can order it online for less. I realize the UPP is to protect retail, but as a consumer, I don't necessarily want to prop up B&M because the market is changing and they can't compete, and in the case of a lot of camera stores, it's already done and gone. Target and Walmart thrive, but they do a bit of everything under one roof, so electronics just a tiny part.

06-12-2012, 08:37 AM	#700
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	No review can say how a camera would fit my hands, or a pair of shoes my feet. I would also like to (briefly) try out cameras I have no intention buying. B&M stores would gladly let me to do it, how about a website? For me, camera stores are absolutely necessary. By the way, I thought Pentax not being in B&M stores was a big issue? This somehow changed after 1st April, and now B&M are dying anyway so why bother

06-12-2012, 08:38 AM	#701
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by jmg257 Remember - you heard it here last! Camera stores a dying breed... Why do you think that is? Corporate and Property taxes don't help with keeping the over head down, that is for certain. That is over and above the cost of real estate and insurance and the power bill just to stay in business. The local B&M quit carrying Canon/Nikon 2 years ago and started carrying Sony exclusively a year ago. Ritz folded during the bankruptcy so that makes this the only store in 100 miles of me. They do C41 processing and sell some darkroom supplies. However, the biggest business is printing etc.

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06-12-2012, 09:08 AM	#702
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	OTOH where I live, the biggest camera store moved to a new location - central (thus expensive), more or less B&H sized. They started carrying Pentax as well, though I'd rather buy directly from our Pentax distributor (let's say, out of habit).

06-12-2012, 07:19 PM	#703
mee Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 7,403	I've never stepped foot into a camera shop.. and probably never will. As already mentioned.. there are a wealth of review sites, videos, and photographs of products to get a very nice feel for what you are buying. Actually much more than I suspect one would get by stepping into the store for 10-20 minutes. The reviews online do much more with the cameras than anyone typically would be allowed to do with them in a store. Plus the pricing is MUCH more competitive online. Large electronics stores in the USA are feeling the effect of online shopping... Circuit City (large electronics store chain) went bankrupt and Bestbuy (their competitor) is in a very tough spot financially. They realized most people go into the stores go to try a product and then leave to purchase online because the pricing is much better. I've only bought Pentax (and related) products online, after much debate and research.. and I've yet to be disappointed with any of the purchases.

06-12-2012, 07:26 PM	#704
aleonx3 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Brampton, Ontario Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,996	Originally posted by kenafein I suppose b&h could just be liquidating its pentax stock for what it will sell for. No sense keeping boxes on a shelf. That may mean they don't plan to get more stock from pentax. How do you know (just wondering)?... I just got the 18-135mm lens hood from b&h which has been out-of-stock for a while, and they just got a new shipment; I waited for over a month.

06-12-2012, 07:31 PM	#705
aleonx3 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Brampton, Ontario Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,996	Originally posted by mee I've never stepped foot into a camera shop.. and probably never will. As already mentioned.. there are a wealth of review sites, videos, and photographs of products to get a very nice feel for what you are buying. Actually much more than I suspect one would get by stepping into the store for 10-20 minutes. The reviews online do much more with the cameras than anyone typically would be allowed to do with them in a store. Plus the pricing is MUCH more competitive online. Large electronics stores in the USA are feeling the effect of online shopping... Circuit City (large electronics store chain) went bankrupt and Bestbuy (their competitor) is in a very tough spot financially. They realized most people go into the stores go to try a product and then leave to purchase online because the pricing is much better. I've only bought Pentax (and related) products online, after much debate and research.. and I've yet to be disappointed with any of the purchases. Make sense to me.. the buying habits in North America are like "try-and-return"... traditional B&M shops can not compete with online retailers (for pricing and overhead) except for large distributors like b&h where they can move large volumes via online sales as well.