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04-26-2012, 04:33 PM   #256
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
There's not a lot of reason a ff camera needs to be bigger than a K-5. There's not a lot of reason it needs to be heavier. The lenses can be heavier and can be lighter depending on whether you're talking wide angle or telephoto and whether you believe in equivalence or not.
If someone puts everything my K-5 gives me in a FF camera without a seize or weight penalty including lenses comparable with my current set up for hiking (DA*16-50, DA35mm Limited and DA 55-300mm) I would be interested. Not to switch instantly because switching brands en systems is costly and only worth while when I'm certain Pentax won't come up with a decent alternative.

04-26-2012, 04:38 PM   #257
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Pentax should better move not too slow... before D600 comes (if true)
Nikon Rumored to be Working on an Entry-Level Full-Frame D600
I see a plot here. And it is thickening rapidly.

Ignoring Aristophanes, Sony seems to launch a 24MP FF chip this summer, at a price closer to cost than any previous offer, allowing FF cameras to break into and crush the enthusiast level APSC dSLR domain. The $1500 level seems plausible for what will become the new enthusiast level SLR segment.

Sony A99 and Nikon D600 would use it and if this is true, I even imagine Pentax to have joined the party. I mean, how on earth could they have ignored Sony's offer for the chip knowing that it would dominate the future 1500$ segment?

This would explain too why we haven't yet seen the D400 or A99 launch: because the APSC D400 was cancelled and A99 was delayed for the chip to become ready.

I believe this is the plot. But be warned as I may be partial: After all I predicted all this more than two years ago...
04-26-2012, 04:57 PM   #258
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Ignoring Aristophanes, Sony seems to launch a 24MP FF chip this summer, at a price closer to cost than any previous offer, allowing FF cameras to break into and crush the enthusiast level APSC dSLR domain. The $1500 level seems plausible for what will become the new enthusiast level SLR segment...
It seem much more plausible to me that it is the D700 replacement. The D800 is the resolution camera and the D600 for those who wants better low light performance. Rumor says it is a high speed camera with a higher fps rate than the D800. This fact and the D600 naming suggests to me that it is not a dumbed down camera sold at basement prices...
Time will tell...
04-26-2012, 04:59 PM   #259
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fries Quote
If someone puts everything my K-5 gives me in a FF camera without a seize or weight penalty including lenses comparable with my current set up for hiking (DA*16-50, DA35mm Limited and DA 55-300mm) I would be interested. Not to switch instantly because switching brands en systems is costly and only worth while when I'm certain Pentax won't come up with a decent alternative.
Well, FF camera has larger viewfinder, therefore it must be at least slightly larger.
Larger mirror, shutter and sensor should not ad size, however they will add some weight.

However I think that probably it should be possible to make FF DSLR of K10D/K20D size.

04-26-2012, 05:20 PM   #260
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you know maybe its jsut me but i dont want a ff camera and the last thing i want to see is the advanced aps-c disappearing - i like the extra effective mangnifaction
04-26-2012, 06:04 PM   #261
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QuoteOriginally posted by stormcloud Quote
you know maybe its jsut me but i dont want a ff camera and the last thing i want to see is the advanced aps-c disappearing - i like the extra effective mangnifaction
I agree with this.

My APS-C K5 gives me all that I need. I will never need, want or buy a FF DSLR, just as i will never need, want or buy a medium format DSLR.

The pictures that I get with my K5 are far better and easier to acquire than anything I ever got with my full frame ME MX or ME Super. I may have a bit of LBA from time to time but never shall I acquire FFBA.

Last edited by Dave L; 04-26-2012 at 06:14 PM.
04-26-2012, 06:10 PM   #262
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Ignoring Aristophanes, Sony seems to launch a 24MP FF chip this summer, at a price closer to cost than any previous offer, allowing FF cameras to break into and crush the enthusiast level APSC dSLR domain.
This is corroborated by the rumour that claims the D600 won't have a built-in AF motor.

Previously, the price of an FF sensor would have made it unthinkable to put it in a camera which is crippled like that.

If the "FF, but no AF motor" rumour is true, AFAIC, it means that the days of exclusive, very high margin FF sensors are over.
04-26-2012, 06:12 PM   #263
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I agree Falk, rumors have continually pointed to the 24MP FF sensor being the one Pentax will use in their FF offering. IIRC, I think I even remember a rumor from ~January stating that a new Sony 24MP was being scooped up by Nikon and Pentax, and at the time it was guffawed by many.

I think this is great, I'm hoping the ISO/DR capabilities of the 24MP sensor at least match that of the 36MP sensor - and hopefully at a lower price point to boot.

04-26-2012, 06:17 PM   #264
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edvinas Quote
Nikonrumors now says that expected price of this camera is... $1500. IMHO that effectively means the death of high end APS-C DSLR. If theses rumours are true, Pentax APS-C DSLR future looks not good at all. Entry level eaten by mirrorless, high end eaten by cheap FF.
Cool, but this would mean also going for more expensive lenses (required, since it would be quite a bummer using DX lenses on FX body, crop mode=sensor capability wasted). So nope, I'm sticking with APS-C.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The question really is, "how am I thinking?" and the answer is, very astutely. Everyone is going after Canon since thier attention is diverted to SS video.
Guess I was too focused on Nikon. (not that I hate it, it's just that I'm hearing way more than the usual talk about this D3200 and upgrades to other models, with my photography buddies, even the Canon shooters who talked about the 1D C for a while, are now talking about it almost incessantly)

Last edited by Alizarine; 04-26-2012 at 06:40 PM.
04-26-2012, 07:13 PM   #265
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FWIW, given the lenses I currently own (only two DA's) I'm more interested in an uncrippled mount than what size sensor is behind it.
04-27-2012, 02:38 AM   #266
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Hmmn, you have ask which camera many consumers might feel offers better value for their kind of photography: a fully loaded, solidly made APS-C camera with a 24-meg sensor or a somewhat cut-down, bottom of the range FF camera also offering 24 megs but which costs half or twice as much again. And that's before you even start to look at buying extra lenses and the loss of magnification on FF, as well as size/weight. I expect there is a place for a less fancy FF in Nikon's stable and in Canon's too, but the notion that either would instantly wipe out the better APS-C cameras strikes me as a little fanciful.

If this is a race to the bottom for FF as sensor prices come down, I hope Pentax stay well clear of competing in it. For Pentax to make their first offering in the FF space a reduced-spec one, in order to match Canonikon prices, would be a disaster, imho. I hope they forget about Canonikon pricing and aim to produce a really solid camera which represents the best aspects of what they'd like Pentax to be known for. If they don't do this, absolutely no one would have a reason to buy it given the hugely more tempting Canonikon ecoystem and instant access to scores of lenses and accessories.

I'd have thought the threat to Pentax from all this might be that their habitual ducking and diving around where they're really going and what they stand for causes folks to start doubting Pentax's commitment to continuing with APS-C for enthusiasts. That would spell real trouble because "Pentax do APS-C really really well" must be one of the main reasons folks stay with them.
04-27-2012, 03:53 AM   #267
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QuoteOriginally posted by stormcloud Quote
you know maybe its jsut me but i dont want a ff camera and the last thing i want to see is the advanced aps-c disappearing - i like the extra effective mangnifaction
I always thought this way when considering the D700. But if the FF Pentax has 24mp, it's a different story: Cropped-to-APS-C pictures will still have 10mp - like my K10D, and presumably less noisy high ISO than my K10D. So I will still be able to use my beloved DA lenses without any other penalty than possibly a smaller viewfinder image (if not.... Pentax launches some nice hybrid VF which in EVF mode auto-crops the image to whatever crop you think is acceptable with that specific lens? I.e. maybe my DA70 could be used with just a slight 1.2x crop to make a very nice 85mm equivalent on a 16mp sensor equivalent? Now that would be cool! !)
04-27-2012, 04:23 AM   #268
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QuoteOriginally posted by stormcloud Quote
you know maybe its jsut me but i dont want a ff camera and the last thing i want to see is the advanced aps-c disappearing - i like the extra effective mangnifaction
You are not alone and high-end APS cameras will not dissapear; the advantages are simply far too numerous; not only the price advantages. Pentax plans quite a few high-end APS lenses judging from the roadmap.
I'll certainly buy a Pentax FF camera. But while I can see myself without an FF camera in the future, using a 645D in that role instead, I cannot see myself without an APS ever. That will take away all the possibilities of the APS format.
04-27-2012, 05:10 AM   #269
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I see a plot here. And it is thickening rapidly.

Ignoring Aristophanes, Sony seems to launch a 24MP FF chip this summer, at a price closer to cost than any previous offer, allowing FF cameras to break into and crush the enthusiast level APSC dSLR domain. The $1500 level seems plausible for what will become the new enthusiast level SLR segment.

Sony A99 and Nikon D600 would use it and if this is true, I even imagine Pentax to have joined the party. I mean, how on earth could they have ignored Sony's offer for the chip knowing that it would dominate the future 1500$ segment?

This would explain too why we haven't yet seen the D400 or A99 launch: because the APSC D400 was cancelled and A99 was delayed for the chip to become ready.

I believe this is the plot. But be warned as I may be partial: After all I predicted all this more than two years ago...
There is considerable rumour to this, but I think the pricing may be off. I see it closer to $2,000 and for Nikon it will replace the D700 where the D800 appeared not to be the replacement.

You don't go from $2,500 to $1,500 overnight. You edge down to maintain margins and amortize investment.

Unknown if Pentax is part of the buying group, but Nikon certainly is. In this market, Pentax would be residual capacity, and that may mean a 2103 actual release. Make no mistake, this is Nikon's market. They drive huge profits for Sony Industrial at a time when Sony is in trouble. Sony will not jeopardize their supply to Nikon nor allow Pentax to price war demand.

Lenses are going to be very expensive. Used D700's will be very cheap relatively. Watch for fire sales.

K-5 feature level cameras can (and should) drop to the $US$1,250-$1,500 price points. If Pentax was smart, they'd also drop DA lens prices as well. Some of the manoeuvring around Pentax pricing strategies may be aimed at new models and an industry shift. If sensors go towards more commodity pricing, then lenses will be controlled for the opposite. Sensors are not proprietary; lens mounts are.

What Pentax also needs to do is get an articulating screen on the K-01.

Consumers would be faced with about a $600 difference between APS-C full feature and FF mostly full feature. That's a pretty hefty difference. Remember: a major goal of camera manufacturers is for you to buy TWO bodies, at least. Smallish APS-C and the big dog FF.
04-27-2012, 05:12 AM   #270
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As I have written before, Pentax will have easier to compete in the $1500-2000 price range with a cheap FF rather than a expensive (and therefore high tech in every way) crop sensor camera. If the rumor is true and if Pentax is not too far behind this time, I'd say it's perfect for Pentax with its limited technology regarding AF and flash system.
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