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04-27-2012, 05:17 AM   #271
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a 300mm lens on a 36MP D800 vs the same 300mm lens on a 16mp K5 gets you equal magnification. a 24 MP FF does not, but it ain't far. + if the announced TC is FF I really do not see an issue

04-27-2012, 05:24 AM   #272
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QuoteOriginally posted by Supernaut Quote
As I have written before, Pentax will have easier to compete in the $1500-2000 price range with a cheap FF rather than a expensive (and therefore high tech in every way) crop sensor camera. If the rumor is true and if Pentax is not too far behind this time, I'd say it's perfect for Pentax with its limited technology regarding AF and flash system.
For Pentax competing in the cheap FF using the same sensor as Sony and Nikon there is an advantage. Pentax has no need to cripple the camera to protect upper level models. In many ways this helps counteract the Nikon (and may even draw new users looking for more fully featured on a budget)
If the price point is $2000 which I think more likely than $1500 then they could launch a very fully featured camera (lke a K5 with a few upgrades like dual card slots etc) Nikon will ensure they have crippled some feature content to protect the 2 big brother's market and price.
Sony will be in the same boat as Pentax - unless they plan a pro model in 2013 with the 36mp sensor then they too will need to cripple to some degree

K5 replacement can then be in the 13-1500 price point without issue at launch, with the mid model WR rumoured @ 999 and the entry @ 749

Canon is going to take a serious beating this year I think
04-27-2012, 05:55 AM   #273
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alizarine Quote
this would mean also going for more expensive lenses
I don't know how many more times this needs to be repeated ...

Everything else being equal (i.e., equivalent lenses, same image quality), full frame lenses are cheaper (to build) than crop lenses.

Such lenses may not always be on the market (yet) or not be priced competitively (yet), but then that would be a temporary phenomenon only.
04-27-2012, 05:58 AM   #274
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I don't know how many more times this needs to be repeated ...

Everything else being equal (i.e., equivalent lenses, same image quality), full frame lenses are cheaper (to build) than crop lenses.
And presumably, bigger and heavier. That, I for one do not want!

Same with the camera: I didn't start off with ME/MX/ME Supers because I wanted large heavy Canikon type cameras OR lenses (think the 'M' series). K5 is definitely at my upper limit from that point of view.

But if Pentax do FF as a higher level alternative that's fine for those who want that, as long as they do not neglect advanced but smaller lighter APS-C models and lenses for folks like me.


Last edited by Dave L; 04-27-2012 at 06:04 AM.
04-27-2012, 06:05 AM   #275
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
For Pentax competing in the cheap FF using the same sensor as Sony and Nikon there is an advantage. Pentax has no need to cripple the camera to protect upper level models. In many ways this helps counteract the Nikon (and may even draw new users looking for more fully featured on a budget)
If the price point is $2000 which I think more likely than $1500 then they could launch a very fully featured camera (lke a K5 with a few upgrades like dual card slots etc) Nikon will ensure they have crippled some feature content to protect the 2 big brother's market and price.
Sony will be in the same boat as Pentax - unless they plan a pro model in 2013 with the 36mp sensor then they too will need to cripple to some degree

K5 replacement can then be in the 13-1500 price point without issue at launch, with the mid model WR rumoured @ 999 and the entry @ 749

Canon is going to take a serious beating this year I think
In my opinion, to this point, Pentax cameras have been somewhat crippled just due to a lack of tech-know-how on the part of Pentax. I just don't think at their present place, Pentax could release a camera to compete with, say a D4, in regards to anything. I would hope for a full frame camera from Pentax that would be at about the D700 level with regard to focusing and other features, but with a more modern sensor. That would be about the best you could hope for.


I think Canon will be stable. Folks that have purchased full frame Canons in the past got just enough in the 5D Mk III to keep them in the fold. The reality is that once you have the glass you need, you are just not likely to switch, unless you really are running up against something that you can't do with current camera bodies available from the company you have b een shooting with. New users may buy Nikon in greater numbers though, which will shift the market. The biggest swing will actually probably be with the Nikon D3200 and its 24 megapixel sensor in an entry level body. Sort of leap frogs Canons entry level options.
04-27-2012, 06:10 AM   #276
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dave L Quote
And presumably, bigger and heavier. That, I for one do not want!

Same with the camera: I didn't start off with ME/MX/ME Supers because I wanted large heavy Canikon type cameras OR lenses (think the 'M' series). K5 is at my upper limit.
Actually a properly equivalent lens should weigh about the same
Properly equivalent is tough to find though. a DA* 16-50 would be equivalent to a 24-70 f4.0 FF Problem is that doesn't exist
Easier would be the 50-135 2.8 which is a 70-200 4.0
70-200 f4.0 L - 1.55 lb (705 g)
50-135 2.8 - 1.51 lb (686 g)

Pretty close
and the Canon is $800
04-27-2012, 06:15 AM   #277
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
In my opinion, to this point, Pentax cameras have been somewhat crippled just due to a lack of tech-know-how on the part of Pentax. I just don't think at their present place, Pentax could release a camera to compete with, say a D4, in regards to anything. I would hope for a full frame camera from Pentax that would be at about the D700 level with regard to focusing and other features, but with a more modern sensor. That would be about the best you could hope for.


I think Canon will be stable. Folks that have purchased full frame Canons in the past got just enough in the 5D Mk III to keep them in the fold. The reality is that once you have the glass you need, you are just not likely to switch, unless you really are running up against something that you can't do with current camera bodies available from the company you have b een shooting with. New users may buy Nikon in greater numbers though, which will shift the market. The biggest swing will actually probably be with the Nikon D3200 and its 24 megapixel sensor in an entry level body. Sort of leap frogs Canons entry level options.
I don't expect a D4 level camera. I would expect there will be things that are better than D700 and things that are worse. The D700 won't be the competitor though will be the D600. If the D600 is crippled enough to protect the D800 then that is the comparison

I think upgraded AF is likely going to be part of the FF and the top APSC (they will share a lot of features most definitely to spread costs)

It's all speculation though until it's announced (I still think there is a high probability of something based on the LX due to the anniversary and the desire expressed by execs to offer something unique in the market)
04-27-2012, 06:22 AM   #278
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dave L Quote
And presumably, bigger and heavier. That, I for one do not want!
No, or at least, not necessarily. For instance, let's assume that the DA 40mm f/2.8 is FF (which it seems to be, and which the similar pancake M 40mm f/2.8 was, so if you have a problem with the DA just assume I'm talking about the M). In this case the FF lens is (or was?) $350, and the APS-C lens would be somewhere around $1300 or so, I'm guessing.

So APS-C is about 300-400% more expensive than FF.

The equivalent APS-C lens is a 26mm f/1.8. Consider the FA 31mm's 'largeness' (for a limited lens) and then extrapolate down to 26mm and you'd have a lens that's around a pound or so and has 62 or 67mm front filter.

So APS-C is about 500% heavier. More like 1000% if you're willing to go to the 40 XS.

Of course I've chosen the lenses to prove my point but you really have to look at the lenses *you* would carry rather than any specific generalization of 'APS-C lenses are smaller'. They really aren't. You could use a very, very slow (and very small, and very cheap) lens on a FF body to get the same images that require faster, wider lenses on APS-C.

You could use APS-C lenses on a FF and crop the images to get the same as APS-C if you want;
but on the other hand, you could use a APS-C sensor and faster lenses and perhaps (with some hypothetical camera, perhaps the 7D) get really good AF. You could use an APS-C sensor and not have to crop later in PP. Etc.

Hope that helps...


Last edited by ElJamoquio; 04-27-2012 at 06:32 AM.
04-27-2012, 06:25 AM   #279
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dave L Quote
And presumably, bigger and heavier. That, I for one do not want!

Same with the camera: I didn't start off with ME/MX/ME Supers because I wanted large heavy Canikon type cameras OR lenses (think the 'M' series). K5 is definitely at my upper limit from that point of view.

But if Pentax do FF as a higher level alternative that's fine for those who want that, as long as they do not neglect advanced but smaller lighter APS-C models and lenses for folks like me.
Well, understanding equivalence is important. A 31 mm f1.8 lens on full frame is a lot easier (and cheaper frankly) to build than a 21 mm f1.2 lens for crop frame and will be smaller as well. A lot of the DA limited lenses do cover a full frame circle already and their small size is attributable to their relatively slow apertures (the DA 15 is only an f4 lens), rather than the fact that they are APS-C lenses.

Most full frame primes from Canon/Nikon are faster than the DA limiteds and so, of course, they look relatively bigger.
04-27-2012, 06:39 AM   #280
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dave L Quote
And presumably, bigger and heavier. That, I for one do not want!
You already got the answer below (that you're wrong).

APSC-style lenses weight and cost the same whatever be the sensor size. Except that their optical performance is superior on FF and inferior on FT (which is why the Olympus constant zoom lenses are so expensive because they needed to pimp the optical formula).

Because the market for APSC-style FF lenses is just taking off, that may be Pentax unique (and last) chance to make a genuine contribution to the topic, let's call it the APSC-style full frame camera (lightweight body with APSC-style full frame lenses). Actually, the DA*60-250/4 is very close to such a lens already (imho, would need a tweak in the corners to keep a star designation on FF).

Last edited by falconeye; 04-27-2012 at 06:45 AM.
04-27-2012, 06:45 AM   #281
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This is what Pentax is up against, especially when priced against the FA 31 Ltd:

Nikon announces AF-S Nikkor 28mm F1.8 G full-frame wideangle prime: Digital Photography Review

People can rant all they want about camera size, but it is lens sizes that differentiate between product categories.
04-27-2012, 06:46 AM   #282
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OK, I concede on the lens front!

I still can't see though how they could keep a FF camera down to the size and weight of the K5 at a similar cost without seriously crippling some of its capabilities, and I definitely don't want a camera bigger or heavier than K5 (a bit lighter would have been better for me).

Still, I'd be happy to see a FF camera from Pentax for those who want one as long as that doesn't adversely affect the APS-C range, which suits me down to the ground. In that case, everyone wins.

Last edited by Dave L; 04-27-2012 at 06:53 AM.
04-27-2012, 07:35 AM   #283
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dave L Quote
OK, I concede on the lens front!

I still can't see though how they could keep a FF camera down to the size and weight of the K5 at a similar cost without seriously crippling some of its capabilities, and I definitely don't want a camera bigger or heavier than K5 (a bit lighter would have been better for me).

Still, I'd be happy to see a FF camera from Pentax for those who want one as long as that doesn't adversely affect the APS-C range, which suits me down to the ground. In that case, everyone wins.
A lot of the size of upper end cameras comes from increased size of auto focus arrays and the computing technology needed to process larger files/do more intricate tracking algorithims, etc. I think you can certainly fit full frame into a camera the size of a K10/K20 without too much problem and include a sensor based shake reduction (very important selling point for Pentax as compared to Canon/Nikon, IMO).
04-27-2012, 08:11 AM   #284
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Because the market for APSC-style FF lenses is just taking off, that may be Pentax unique (and last) chance to make a genuine contribution to the topic, let's call it the APSC-style full frame camera (lightweight body with APSC-style full frame lenses). Actually, the DA*60-250/4 is very close to such a lens already (imho, would need a tweak in the corners to keep a star designation on FF).
Just my thoughts, but remember that Canon already has the 24-105 f/4 (i.e. equivalent to 16-70 f/2.6 on APS-C), and Nikon has the 24-120 f/4.

So if they go for a 24-70 f/4 or similar, it should stand out in some way, preferably by vein unusually small and lightweight. And WRed of course.
04-27-2012, 08:20 AM   #285
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Just my thoughts, but remember that Canon already has the 24-105 f/4 (i.e. equivalent to 16-70 f/2.6 on APS-C), and Nikon has the 24-120 f/4.

So if they go for a 24-70 f/4 or similar, it should stand out in some way, preferably by vein unusually small and lightweight. And WRed of course.
Well, I prefer they begin with basics, somehow payable lenses, and get to 24-120 pricey lenses later...
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