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04-27-2012, 10:19 AM   #301
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exactly. the reach advantage will also continue to disappear as more pixel dens FF sensors come down in price, and thw WA gap will become even bigger because the FF will have better pixel density and end up printing better. the real reality is to keep the profit in sensor manufacturing FF will keep pushing down on price making anything but entry level apsc obsolete within probably 5 years given the moves that seem to be imminent this year. that's not a bad thing (as many would have you believe) I think all manufacturers would have preferred to have always released FF. APSC was a compromise because the technology wasn't there for them to do that. It is now reaching that point. I can see apsc moving into advanced compact cameras in the not to distant future. I still think there is a market for a really good specialty compact like the old Olympus XA
and i can actually see something like that coming under the Ricoh Banner before anywhere else, they are very good at oddball cameras

04-27-2012, 10:32 AM   #302
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
This is corroborated by the rumour that claims the D600 won't have a built-in AF motor.

Previously, the price of an FF sensor would have made it unthinkable to put it in a camera which is crippled like that.

.
This, to me, is almost disgusting. There is no reason to keep a motor out of the body beyond a bald-faced attempt to force folks to buy 'updated' AF-S lenses. It's transparent, and a money-grab so transparent feels like an insult, as in 'most buyers are too clueless to know why we're doing his, and to the ones that are clued in... too f****** bad. The clueless outnumber you and give us cover.."

I'm hoping it's not true, since they did include the motor in the high-end aps-c bodies, and this new FF body is supposed to play in that space.


.
04-27-2012, 10:37 AM   #303
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
This, to me, is almost disgusting. There is no reason to keep a motor out of the body beyond a bald-faced attempt to force folks to buy 'updated' AF-S lenses. It's transparent, and a money-grab so transparent feels like an insult, as in 'most buyers are either too clueless to know why we're doing his, and the ones that are clued in... too f****** bad. The clueless outnumber you and give us cover.."

I'm hoping it's not true, since they did include the motor in the high-end aps-c bodies, and this new FF body is supposed to play in that space.


.

well from a perspective of someone who hasn't made the leap for a nikon FF, I hope it's true it will help make the Pentax more attractive :P

(but really i agree it's hard to fathom that level of crippling - though lesser AF, lesser sealing, more plastic, FPS limitations are all very likely)
04-27-2012, 10:45 AM   #304
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
But the problem for Pentax is the lack of FF lenses.
Specifically the lack of a 12-24 and 24-70. There's lenses on the roadmap now that may or may not be FF to fill that niche.

For reference...
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/183420-current...me-lenses.html

04-27-2012, 10:57 AM   #305
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Specifically the lack of a 12-24 and 24-70. There's lenses on the roadmap now that may or may not be FF to fill that niche.

For reference...
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/183420-current...me-lenses.html
Funnily enough it is the wide end that will lack the most since the FA 20, 24 and 28 primes are all gone (Damn you Hoya)
I think the idea of a 24-105 f4.0 as a good starter kit lens suffices for the near term Just make it WR. there is what looks like a 12-24 on the roadmap and the current one seems to be on the way out so perhaps there is a ff WR version coming (won't be a cheap lens though)
a kit with either the FA50 or FA 43 would be nice to see as well (I think many FF guys may be happy with a prime kit)
04-27-2012, 03:12 PM   #306
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
APSC-style lenses weight and cost the same whatever be the sensor size. Except that their optical performance is superior on FF and inferior on FT (which is why the Olympus constant zoom lenses are so expensive because they needed to pimp the optical formula). Because the market for APSC-style FF lenses is just taking off, that may be Pentax unique (and last) chance to make a genuine contribution to the topic, let's call it the APSC-style full frame camera (lightweight body with APSC-style full frame lenses). Actually, the DA*60-250/4 is very close to such a lens already (imho, would need a tweak in the corners to keep a star designation on FF).
Thanks for the correction there for the lens sizes in APS-C and FF. I was thinking about the DA21, seems the max aperture plays a real lot on the lens size
04-28-2012, 08:56 AM   #307
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
No, only some of them are.
This is why I carefully worded my post: Cheaper to build. MSRPs are a different story though ...
QuoteOriginally posted by disya2 Quote
Sorry for off-topic from lens equivalence. I saw that many people (here) are after dual-card SD slot.
Why?
Flash memory cards DO fail. The reliability is very high for trusted brands though.
Nevertheless, a pro on a mission-critical assignment (wedding etc.) will insist on dual card where one card is configured to store JPGs and the other RAWs. Just like he insists to carry a backup camera.
QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
This is cheating.
Can we please stop responding to each other on this topic?

It is not that I don't respect you or your opinion. It is just that I think we would need more bandwidth and more beer to have a fruitful discussion about this particular topic.

So, if I don't reply anymore to your posts about this topic, I don't mean to agree
04-28-2012, 12:44 PM   #308
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Falk, do you have any data suggesting the DA* 300mm f/4 is cheaper to build than the 200mm f/2.8?

04-28-2012, 04:48 PM   #309
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Falk, do you have any data suggesting the DA* 300mm f/4 is cheaper to build than the 200mm f/2.8?


(drawings (c) kmp.bdimitrov.de )

Because the lens diameter is the same, the building cost are in the same ball park. However, looking closer, guess which lens is the cheaper one to make. Moreover, it is the one reported to be sharper too. Differences would be more clearly visible at shorter focal lengths.

In my paper I tried to explain why equivalent lenses for the larger format are generally less challenging to make.
04-28-2012, 11:26 PM   #310
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Nikon does APSC-style FF lenses

I already talked about what I mean by an "APSC-style lens".

Well, it seems it is exactly that type of lens Nikon currently invests heaviliy for FF.

Look at Nikon patents for 17mm f/4 tilt and shift, 10mm f/4, 16-30mm f/4.5-5.6 and 28mm f/1.4 lenses | Nikon Rumors

They call it "compact FF lenses" rather than APSC-style though

This is another indicator that a compact FF body is coming from Nikon, rumored to be called D600.

There is no doubt that Pentax cannot avoid to answer to this challenge. Ricoh is not dumb. So I think that we can use this as a clear evidence the whole dSLR market is moving FF now, Pentax included.
04-29-2012, 02:12 AM   #311
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I already talked about what I mean by an "APSC-style lens".

Well, it seems it is exactly that type of lens Nikon currently invests heaviliy for FF.

Look at Nikon patents for 17mm f/4 tilt and shift, 10mm f/4, 16-30mm f/4.5-5.6 and 28mm f/1.4 lenses | Nikon Rumors

They call it "compact FF lenses" rather than APSC-style though

This is another indicator that a compact FF body is coming from Nikon, rumored to be called D600.

There is no doubt that Pentax cannot avoid to answer to this challenge. Ricoh is not dumb. So I think that we can use this as a clear evidence the whole dSLR market is moving FF now, Pentax included.
I agree with you. I also think Ricoh is not dumb. But the question is, was Pentax ready? Because if they aren't, they are going to get caught with their pants down on this iteration of DSLRs. I hope that is not the scenario.

But I have to say I'm happy. If ever was the time for Pentax to make a compact full frame DSLR, it is now. My birthday is in September, I expect some nice announcements then if not, I have my k5 to comfort me I can say that none of the other companies offer the compact lenses I like, so the only company whose full frame camera interests me is Pentax.

Last edited by dankoBanana; 04-29-2012 at 02:18 AM.
04-29-2012, 02:19 AM   #312
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Ricoh is not dumb. So I think that we can use this as a clear evidence the whole dSLR market is moving FF now, Pentax included.
Finally, dooms days are over, were looking with confident to the future with a FF K-1. I sold my last aps-c lens this weekend, so I'm ready.
04-29-2012, 02:24 AM   #313
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I am very curiouis as to how the FA and some of the DA limiteds perform on a digitar full frame sensor wait and see, wait and see
04-29-2012, 02:47 AM   #314
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And I do like a 24mp sensor more over a 36mp sensor. It's nice to have all those details, but do we need that in all our pictures?
04-29-2012, 03:26 AM   #315
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All the talk of cropping FF images to give same as a aps-c - while its sort of true - there are major downsides to this approach!

First as someone else worked out this sensor i think produced a 10mp aps-c image - thats a loss of 6mp from my k5 - so less flexibility - cant crop a 10mp image nearly as much as a 16mp.

Ok you say sensor tech is moving on, soon we will have that 16mp crop no prob - sure but lets think about that - to achieve that that lets say it takes a 36mp sensor............your going to need to do more than upgrade your camera, my computer will object majorly when editing something like that - frankly it bogs down with 16mp images if i start adding to many layers in photoshop, so your looking at some horrible lag when dealing with such large image files. And aps-c sensors will also have increased pixel density too so the full frame sensor will never be able to get ahead of the game in any event.

Larger sensor means larger mirror that means (yes it means nicer viewfinder i know - but thats the only upside i see) more weight - more battery drain - and almost certainly larger body unless your going mirrorless and sorry evf's just aren't up there with optical ones yet.

Finally DOF, if you forget about cropping then for the same shot you need a greater focal length for FF this means less DOF, fine for portrait photographers but less handy for wildlife where you are already struggling with to little DOF - so FF isn't or everyone and hopefully Pentax/Ricoh wont force us down that path.

Now i'm not saying that we shouldn't have a FF option in the line up - i most certainly do think we should, but its for brand health rather than my own wants and needs, but i do worry that the best tech will end up in the full frame and leave us with crippled aps-c as in the nikon and canon line ups
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