Photo Forum Russia - Pentax stand - and info about new DSLR

gazonk · 05-07-2012, 05:22 AM

Originally posted by Mareket

Pentax go for a tiny, solid build and you pay a lot for that. Though hopefully the new 50mm f/1.8 will give Pentax a good cheap 50 for people to get hooked on. I just hope it doesn't feel like the Canon 50mm f/1.8.

I guess it feels like the DA35/2.4. I.e. pretty plasticky, but better than that Canon.

ogl · 05-07-2012, 06:38 AM

Originally posted by gtl

About the expensive nikon glass thing... Don't they have cheap F1.8G lenses ready for FF?

28mm f1.8g vs FA 31mm f1.8
50mm f1.8g vs FA 43mm f1.9
85mm f1.8g vs FA 77mm f1.8

It's absolutely different lenses.
No any possibility to compare....

garyk · 05-07-2012, 08:18 AM

I hated the k7 & k5 both. But? After doing some digging I think Ricoh is going to be the bright light in Pentax future. I was going to sell everything and good rid-dens. But if the k5 replacement is going to be using the new Sony crop sensor. I may be back in? This time out I will wait a good 6-12 months and after the dust settles and Faulk has a chance to check the AF module or algorithms and make sure the AF is a least going to work in low light and with consistent results. And all the other QC issues are settled.

I think AF-C is really too much to ask for so soon but who knows.
At present I use the 7D and love it. But Canon is behind Sony in Sensor Development and I have Pentax lenses so I am going to wait, but not holding my breath.

Kryscendo · 05-07-2012, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

That's wrong. Even the term AA filter is technically wrong.

What happens is a necessary spreading of color information prior to Bayer filtering. If not done, color information is destroyed forever and cannot be recovered. It can't be done electronically to the raw data either because a red sensel cannot capture the information of a blue sensel.

What people call moiré pattern actually is a so-called false color moiré pattern. Sensors with a microlens array produce no classical moiré artefact.

All you can do is to try to detect the false color moiré pattern after the fact and desaturate it. However, this step desaturates parts of the image and destroys detail too.

So what is the proper solution?

I know PS CS6 has a brush that can 'paint away' the moire effect, and it does desaturate the image, but then you just go back in, and saturate it back up.

thibs · 05-07-2012, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by garyk

I hated the k7 & k5 both.

Wow, so much love there...

RonHendriks1966 · 05-07-2012, 09:50 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by garyk

I hated the k7 & k5 both. But?

I hope that a K-3 will use this body again for the next two years with an aps-c sensor. My hands are used to holding that little machine (since july 2009).

eddie1960 · 05-07-2012, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by RonHendriks1966

I hope that a K-3 will use this body again for the next two years with an aps-c sensor. My hands are used to holding that little machine (since july 2009).

I hope they keep it too, continuity in accessories is nice. and though i struggled at the beginning moving from the K10, that was short lived and i love the form factor now, both with and without the grip

RonHendriks1966 · 05-07-2012, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by eddie1960

I hope they keep it too, continuity in accessories is nice. and though i struggled at the beginning moving from the K10, that was short lived and i love the form factor now, both with and without the grip

That's why I would like a full frame camera with the same body, but integrated grip to give room for electronics!

**Rondec** · 05-07-2012, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by ogl

It's absolutely different lenses.
No any possibility to compare....

Very true. The FA limiteds are very high quality that is not judgable purely from their maximum aperture. It is more than just difference in build (which is there as well), but also rendering, both of subject and out of focus areas. Those other lenses are consumer grade lenses that are fine, but not the same at all.

ElJamoquio · 05-07-2012, 10:42 AM

Originally posted by RonHendriks1966

That's why I would like a full frame camera with the same body, but integrated grip to give room for electronics!

I like the ergonomics too, but I don't want the integrated grip. I'd rather have a slightly wider body or something for FF if more volume is necessary.

gazonk · 05-07-2012, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

I like the ergonomics too, but I don't want the integrated grip. I'd rather have a slightly wider body or something for FF if more volume is necessary.

+1 to that! I would never buy a grip since I love to hold the camera like I hold it in my avatar picture - with the left hand under the camera.

mattdm · 05-07-2012, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by falconeye

That's wrong. Even the term AA filter is technically wrong.

What happens is a necessary spreading of color information prior to Bayer filtering. If not done, color information is destroyed forever and cannot be recovered. It can't be done electronically to the raw data either because a red sensel cannot capture the information of a blue sensel.

What people call moiré pattern actually is a so-called false color moiré pattern. Sensors with a microlens array produce no classical moiré artefact.

All you can do is to try to detect the false color moiré pattern after the fact and desaturate it. However, this step desaturates parts of the image and destroys detail too.

Sony should emulate the 6×6 array Fujifilm uses in their X-Pro 1. I used the camera for 3 weeks of solid shooting and never encountered anything in the real world which was a problem. (I didn't do any contrived tests, though.)

Presumably the pattern is protected by patents; it's probably worthwhile to just sigh and license 'em.

ElJamoquio · 05-07-2012, 01:23 PM

I don't know anything about the fujifilm array but many non-Bayer patterns are pretty old and are in the public domain. The Bayer pattern itself was patented 36 years ago and was public domain before digital cameras were popular.

Personally I'd prefer the panchromatic stuff that Kodak introduced (but perhaps never implemented?) a while back.

falconeye · 05-07-2012, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by mattdm

Sony should emulate the 6×6 array Fujifilm uses in their X-Pro 1. I used the camera for 3 weeks of solid shooting and never encountered anything in the real world which was a problem. (I didn't do any contrived tests, though.)

Presumably the pattern is protected by patents; it's probably worthwhile to just sigh and license 'em.

I looked at the Fuji pattern and I don't think it is superior. It has its own pro and cons.

Not seeing moiré w/o an AA filter is the norm. I can tell you from experience. But it depends on the kind of your photography. If you shoot many fabrics your experience might differ.

bossa · 05-07-2012, 08:21 PM

Originally posted by garyk

I hated the k7 & k5 both. But? After doing some digging I think Ricoh is going to be the bright light in Pentax future. I was going to sell everything and good rid-dens. But if the k5 replacement is going to be using the new Sony crop sensor. I may be back in? This time out I will wait a good 6-12 months and after the dust settles and Faulk has a chance to check the AF module or algorithms and make sure the AF is a least going to work in low light and with consistent results. And all the other QC issues are settled.

I think AF-C is really too much to ask for so soon but who knows.
At present I use the 7D and love it. But Canon is behind Sony in Sensor Development and I have Pentax lenses so I am going to wait, but not holding my breath.

How in hell can you 'hate' a K5?

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05-07-2012, 05:22 AM	#406
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by Mareket Pentax go for a tiny, solid build and you pay a lot for that. Though hopefully the new 50mm f/1.8 will give Pentax a good cheap 50 for people to get hooked on. I just hope it doesn't feel like the Canon 50mm f/1.8. I guess it feels like the DA35/2.4. I.e. pretty plasticky, but better than that Canon.

05-07-2012, 06:38 AM	#407
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382 Original Poster	Originally posted by gtl About the expensive nikon glass thing... Don't they have cheap F1.8G lenses ready for FF? 28mm f1.8g vs FA 31mm f1.8 50mm f1.8g vs FA 43mm f1.9 85mm f1.8g vs FA 77mm f1.8 It's absolutely different lenses. No any possibility to compare....

05-07-2012, 08:18 AM	#408
garyk Inactive Account Join Date: Feb 2010 Photos: Gallery Posts: 488	I hated the k7 & k5 both. But? After doing some digging I think Ricoh is going to be the bright light in Pentax future. I was going to sell everything and good rid-dens. But if the k5 replacement is going to be using the new Sony crop sensor. I may be back in? This time out I will wait a good 6-12 months and after the dust settles and Faulk has a chance to check the AF module or algorithms and make sure the AF is a least going to work in low light and with consistent results. And all the other QC issues are settled. I think AF-C is really too much to ask for so soon but who knows. At present I use the 7D and love it. But Canon is behind Sony in Sensor Development and I have Pentax lenses so I am going to wait, but not holding my breath.

05-07-2012, 08:49 AM	#409
Kryscendo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 222	Originally posted by falconeye That's wrong. Even the term AA filter is technically wrong. What happens is a necessary spreading of color information *prior* to Bayer filtering. If not done, color information is destroyed forever and cannot be recovered. It can't be done electronically to the raw data either because a red sensel cannot capture the information of a blue sensel. What people call moiré pattern actually is a so-called false color moiré pattern. Sensors with a microlens array produce no classical moiré artefact. All you can do is to try to detect the false color moiré pattern after the fact and desaturate it. However, this step desaturates parts of the image and destroys detail too. So what is the proper solution? I know PS CS6 has a brush that can 'paint away' the moire effect, and it does desaturate the image, but then you just go back in, and saturate it back up.

05-07-2012, 09:00 AM	#410
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by garyk I hated the k7 & k5 both. Wow, so much love there...

05-07-2012, 09:50 AM - 1 Like	#411
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by garyk I hated the k7 & k5 both. But? I hope that a K-3 will use this body again for the next two years with an aps-c sensor. My hands are used to holding that little machine (since july 2009).

05-07-2012, 09:54 AM	#412
eddie1960 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,666	Originally posted by RonHendriks1966 I hope that a K-3 will use this body again for the next two years with an aps-c sensor. My hands are used to holding that little machine (since july 2009). I hope they keep it too, continuity in accessories is nice. and though i struggled at the beginning moving from the K10, that was short lived and i love the form factor now, both with and without the grip

05-07-2012, 09:59 AM	#413
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by eddie1960 I hope they keep it too, continuity in accessories is nice. and though i struggled at the beginning moving from the K10, that was short lived and i love the form factor now, both with and without the grip That's why I would like a full frame camera with the same body, but integrated grip to give room for electronics!

05-07-2012, 10:23 AM	#414
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Originally posted by ogl It's absolutely different lenses. No any possibility to compare.... Very true. The FA limiteds are very high quality that is not judgable purely from their maximum aperture. It is more than just difference in build (which is there as well), but also rendering, both of subject and out of focus areas. Those other lenses are consumer grade lenses that are fine, but not the same at all.

05-07-2012, 10:42 AM	#415
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by RonHendriks1966 That's why I would like a full frame camera with the same body, but integrated grip to give room for electronics! I like the ergonomics too, but I don't want the integrated grip. I'd rather have a slightly wider body or something for FF if more volume is necessary.

05-07-2012, 10:55 AM	#416
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by ElJamoquio I like the ergonomics too, but I don't want the integrated grip. I'd rather have a slightly wider body or something for FF if more volume is necessary. +1 to that! I would never buy a grip since I love to hold the camera like I hold it in my avatar picture - with the left hand under the camera.

05-07-2012, 12:36 PM	#417
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Originally posted by falconeye That's wrong. Even the term AA filter is technically wrong. What happens is a necessary spreading of color information *prior* to Bayer filtering. If not done, color information is destroyed forever and cannot be recovered. It can't be done electronically to the raw data either because a red sensel cannot capture the information of a blue sensel. What people call moiré pattern actually is a so-called false color moiré pattern. Sensors with a microlens array produce no classical moiré artefact. All you can do is to try to detect the false color moiré pattern after the fact and desaturate it. However, this step desaturates parts of the image and destroys detail too. Sony should emulate the 6×6 array Fujifilm uses in their X-Pro 1. I used the camera for 3 weeks of solid shooting and never encountered anything in the real world which was a problem. (I didn't do any contrived tests, though.) Presumably the pattern is protected by patents; it's probably worthwhile to just sigh and license 'em.

05-07-2012, 01:23 PM	#418
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	I don't know anything about the fujifilm array but many non-Bayer patterns are pretty old and are in the public domain. The Bayer pattern itself was patented 36 years ago and was public domain before digital cameras were popular. Personally I'd prefer the panchromatic stuff that Kodak introduced (but perhaps never implemented?) a while back.

05-07-2012, 07:04 PM	#419
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by mattdm Sony should emulate the 6×6 array Fujifilm uses in their X-Pro 1. I used the camera for 3 weeks of solid shooting and never encountered anything in the real world which was a problem. (I didn't do any contrived tests, though.) Presumably the pattern is protected by patents; it's probably worthwhile to just sigh and license 'em. I looked at the Fuji pattern and I don't think it is superior. It has its own pro and cons. Not seeing moiré w/o an AA filter is the norm. I can tell you from experience. But it depends on the kind of your photography. If you shoot many fabrics your experience might differ.

05-07-2012, 08:21 PM	#420
bossa Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Adelaide Posts: 4,546	Originally posted by garyk I hated the k7 & k5 both. But? After doing some digging I think Ricoh is going to be the bright light in Pentax future. I was going to sell everything and good rid-dens. But if the k5 replacement is going to be using the new Sony crop sensor. I may be back in? This time out I will wait a good 6-12 months and after the dust settles and Faulk has a chance to check the AF module or algorithms and make sure the AF is a least going to work in low light and with consistent results. And all the other QC issues are settled. I think AF-C is really too much to ask for so soon but who knows. At present I use the 7D and love it. But Canon is behind Sony in Sensor Development and I have Pentax lenses so I am going to wait, but not holding my breath. How in hell can you 'hate' a K5?