Images made with K20D

Ray Pulley · 01-14-2008, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by mutley

And, the K10D still has VPN.

After so many months of ignoring and not acknowledging the existence of VPN, Pentax makes another camera with VPN.

They, and the beta testers must really assume its no big deal as this was January 11 firmware, and introduction is Jan. 24.

Why can't they just understand what causes the banding, and not accept a design until its completely eliminated. Gordon B. Goode came up with some plausible ways to initially be sure there won't be VPN in the first place, without using firmware tweaks to overcome a design/hardware issue.

VPN should have been a given for the K20HD not to have. Color noise as well. Even the D300 & D3 have solved that issue at 6400 without additional in-camera noise reduction. Pentax knows this. Luminance noise at 6400 is not as big a deal, and is expected.

The banding you see in the high ISO image above looks nothing like the green/purple streaking seen in some K10D shots, but you are right to be so alarmed about the K20D ISO 6400 banding and bad noise in the pre-production shots above.

Here are more samples that show banding and bad noise:

Sell all of your Pentax gear now while the Eeekbay prices are still ridiculously high!

Ray

ogl · 01-14-2008, 10:26 PM

If it's really K20D's jpegs,
my first impression from this pictures are much better than from first images of K10D in web with beta firmware in 2006. Even this small pictures.

ogl · 01-14-2008, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by Ray Pulley

The banding you see in the high ISO image above looks nothing like the green/purple streaking seen in some K10D shots, but you are right to be so alarmed about the K20D ISO 6400 banding and bad noise in the pre-production shots above.
Sell all of your Pentax gear now while the Eeekbay prices are still ridiculously high!
Ray

Please, don't weep, please, don't cry...

We will shoot alarmists under war's laws.

It's joke.
But...To say seriously...

It's silly to discuss ISO6400 and make such loud conclusion

The real quality pictures of any camera are from ISO 100 till 400.
And useable 800 and 1600 is good bonus. To talk about good ISO3200 or 6400 is nonsense.
Especially, about jpeg samples without exif with beta firmware.
Who cares of ISO6400???

All talks of Sony/Nikon fans about good ISO800 of Sony 12 MP APS-C are just talks.
It's really a bit better than Sony 10 MP APS-C, but not better than ISO800 of 6 MP.

mutley · 01-14-2008, 10:39 PM

Originally posted by Ray Pulley

The banding you see in the high ISO image above looks nothing like the green/purple streaking seen in some K10D shots, but you are right to be so alarmed about the K20D ISO 6400 banding and bad noise in the pre-production shots above.

Here are more samples that show banding and bad noise:

Some of those shots look like the Nikon D200 issue which Nikon acknowledged, and repaired free of charge.

There's a difference between that, and Pentax never ever acknowledging VPN, and saying basically, "Sir, hypothetically, even if there was this alleged so called hypothetical "VPN", it (hypothetically) would definitely be allegedly only the supposed user's definite fault, so we fully guarantee you we will do absolutely nothing about it ever."

Originally posted by Ray Pulley

Sell all of your Pentax gear now while the Eeekbay prices are still ridiculously high!

Ray

Already done.

lol101 · 01-14-2008, 11:14 PM

Originally posted by mutley

Some of those shots look like the Nikon D200 issue which Nikon acknowledged, and repaired free of charge.

There's a difference between that, and Pentax never ever acknowledging VPN, and saying basically, "Sir, hypothetically, even if there was this alleged so called hypothetical "VPN", it (hypothetically) would definitely be allegedly only the supposed user's definite fault, so we fully guarantee you we will do absolutely nothing about it ever."

Already done.

Do you really think the camera's IQ can be judged from thoses samples?

Are you aware you are discussing ISO 6400 performances with early firmware that you know nothing about (and underexposed by two stops in addition...)?

If you're interested by the camera, why not wait for production samples at the very least?

Or maybe you just like to complain...

lol101 · 01-14-2008, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by ricardobeat

maybe I got it wrong, but I think those noisy shots are 100% crops. If they are, it looks really good. That is with no NR applied, you can easily get rid of the chroma noise.

Considering the setup (birds, sandboarding, quad-cycles) I'd say the WOW factor of this new camera will be the fastest and more accurate predictive AF we've ever seen.

And come on, if the K10D does 5fps they surely won't degrade it.

I don't think they are 100% crops, some are crops (as indicated by the OP) but in any case, if there is one thing that changes dramatically from beta firmwares to "definitive" ones, it's the high ISO IQ so I wouldn't pay too much attention to these.

lol101 · 01-14-2008, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by mutley

No, because the buyer returned it all to me because of excessive VPN...

Damn! It's a curse then...

Only I am not sure if the curse is on you or us...

thibs · 01-15-2008, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by Ray Pulley

Apparently, Canon and Nikon, with all of their resources, cash, and alleged superiority, do not always understand how to "completely eliminate" banding noise any better than Pentax, even if you spend upwards of $5,000 for one of their cameras.

I think getting a usable ISO 3200 out of the new camera will be quite an accomplishment only one year or so after releasing the 10MP K10D, which I consider to be barely usable at ISO 800.

Ray

You could add that the ist-D also gives a significant amount of VPN/HPN when underexposed.
All digital camera I tried will.
Some should learn how to expose properly instead of moaning constantly in forums.

Why can't that troll be banned?

Deni · 01-15-2008, 12:49 AM

Originally posted by mutley

No, because the buyer returned it all to me because of excessive VPN...

You can send all your worthless pentax stuff to me and I\d be happy to give you something worthy.

mutley · 01-15-2008, 01:09 AM

Originally posted by Ray Pulley

As for the images they come from the following cameras:

Some of the images are from official review sites that shall remain nameless
Ray

What's the deal with those "D300" shots where on the left side is banding, and on the right it is gone? What were they comparing?

schufosi777 · 01-15-2008, 03:13 AM

Yes the shot have amazing color gradation and an amazing smoothness as though they were laquered with a beautiflly rich varnish......but that Pentaxes trademark. Its enough for me. Wow I feel like I am back in the 80s listening to Joe Jackson with the nuclear war imminent. Sadly I am not. Just waiting for some details on what will be camera soon.

RMabo · 01-15-2008, 03:30 AM

Posting images from a pre-production unit only tells that the camera was able to take images, it does not tell about the actual quality of the images so I don't understand the posting of those images here. Remember the K10D introduction? We had leaked images taken with pre-production samples there too, and those images were terrible. So those images gave bad reputation to the K10D before it was released. Now the same thing happens again.
Never judge images from pre-production units. There is a reason to why Dpreviews previews seldom contains images, just because they are previewing pre-production units, and the pre-production units does not have as good image quality as the final production units.

We're still a few weeks to the actual product announcement, and we don't know yet when the production units will be available. It may be even more weeks.
So lets wait with judgement over image quality 'till we have the "real thing".

feronovak · 01-15-2008, 03:52 AM

Originally posted by RMabo

Posting images from a pre-production unit only tells that the camera was able to take images, it does not tell about the actual quality of the images so I don't understand the posting of those images here. Remember the K10D introduction? We had leaked images taken with pre-production samples there too, and those images were terrible. So those images gave bad reputation to the K10D before it was released. Now the same thing happens again.
Never judge images from pre-production units. There is a reason to why Dpreviews previews seldom contains images, just because they are previewing pre-production units, and the pre-production units does not have as good image quality as the final production units.

We're still a few weeks to the actual product announcement, and we don't know yet when the production units will be available. It may be even more weeks.
So lets wait with judgement over image quality 'till we have the "real thing".

those images are not even full resolution images ... talk about image quality then ... people should wait 2 weeks, I am sure that pentax will upload official tiffs/raws on their k20d site

Falcons · 01-15-2008, 06:09 AM

Does anyone shoot in low ISO's like me? I only use high ISO when I need to and I tell you what Neat image brings any high ISO image a treat.

From all the posts I see here I'm starting to think that everyone only shoots severely underexposed high ISO shots blows them up to 100% crops then spends hours upon hours studying them looking for flaws. Seriously is this what photography has become?

Anyway pics whether taken with a K20D or kodak box brownie look pretty good to me and show people enjoying themselves and having fun.

Take the hint - their having fun while some of you on here are crying into your cups because a pic has some noise in it - get a life.

Mutley if you are so worried just buy a nikond300.
I'll pre empt your answers -
Why should I? (Because you are unhappy and annoying)
I have 1000's of $$$ invested in Pentax glass. (so sell it. It is probably worth more than you paid for it.)
and the other beauty is
Pentax should build a pro level camera just for me (but at a budget price of course as I can't really afford a nikon D300)

lol101 · 01-15-2008, 08:05 AM

And now to something completely different: a fish and a carpet...

Time for a musical interlude of some kind...

01-14-2008, 10:22 PM	#46
Ray Pulley Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Fallon Nevada Photos: Albums Posts: 504	More K20d High Iso Shots! Originally posted by mutley And, the K10D still has VPN. After so many months of ignoring and not acknowledging the existence of VPN, Pentax makes another camera with VPN. They, and the beta testers must really assume its no big deal as this was January 11 firmware, and introduction is Jan. 24. Why can't they just understand what causes the banding, and not accept a design until its completely eliminated. Gordon B. Goode came up with some plausible ways to initially be sure there won't be VPN in the first place, without using firmware tweaks to overcome a design/hardware issue. VPN should have been a given for the K20HD not to have. Color noise as well. Even the D300 & D3 have solved that issue at 6400 without additional in-camera noise reduction. Pentax knows this. Luminance noise at 6400 is not as big a deal, and is expected. The banding you see in the high ISO image above looks nothing like the green/purple streaking seen in some K10D shots, but you are right to be so alarmed about the K20D ISO 6400 banding and bad noise in the pre-production shots above. Here are more samples that show banding and bad noise: Sell all of your Pentax gear now while the Eeekbay prices are still ridiculously high! Ray

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01-14-2008, 10:26 PM	#47
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	If it's really K20D's jpegs, my first impression from this pictures are much better than from first images of K10D in web with beta firmware in 2006. Even this small pictures.

01-14-2008, 10:37 PM	#48
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by Ray Pulley The banding you see in the high ISO image above looks nothing like the green/purple streaking seen in some K10D shots, but you are right to be so alarmed about the K20D ISO 6400 banding and bad noise in the pre-production shots above. Sell all of your Pentax gear now while the Eeekbay prices are still ridiculously high! Ray Please, don't weep, please, don't cry... We will shoot alarmists under war's laws. It's joke. But...To say seriously... It's silly to discuss ISO6400 and make such loud conclusion The real quality pictures of any camera are from ISO 100 till 400. And useable 800 and 1600 is good bonus. To talk about good ISO3200 or 6400 is nonsense. Especially, about jpeg samples without exif with beta firmware. Who cares of ISO6400??? All talks of Sony/Nikon fans about good ISO800 of Sony 12 MP APS-C are just talks. It's really a bit better than Sony 10 MP APS-C, but not better than ISO800 of 6 MP.

01-14-2008, 10:39 PM	#49
mutley Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: LI, NY Posts: 313	Originally posted by Ray Pulley The banding you see in the high ISO image above looks nothing like the green/purple streaking seen in some K10D shots, but you are right to be so alarmed about the K20D ISO 6400 banding and bad noise in the pre-production shots above. Here are more samples that show banding and bad noise: Some of those shots look like the Nikon D200 issue which Nikon acknowledged, and repaired free of charge. There's a difference between that, and Pentax never ever acknowledging VPN, and saying basically, "Sir, hypothetically, even if there was this alleged so called hypothetical "VPN", it (hypothetically) would definitely be allegedly only the supposed user's definite fault, so we fully guarantee you we will do absolutely nothing about it ever." Originally posted by Ray Pulley Sell all of your Pentax gear now while the Eeekbay prices are still ridiculously high! Ray Already done.

01-14-2008, 11:14 PM	#50
lol101 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Garennes sur Eure France Photos: Gallery Posts: 899	Originally posted by mutley Some of those shots look like the Nikon D200 issue which Nikon acknowledged, and repaired free of charge. There's a difference between that, and Pentax never ever acknowledging VPN, and saying basically, "Sir, hypothetically, even if there was this alleged so called hypothetical "VPN", it (hypothetically) would definitely be allegedly only the supposed user's definite fault, so we fully guarantee you we will do absolutely nothing about it ever." Already done. Do you really think the camera's IQ can be judged from thoses samples? Are you aware you are discussing ISO 6400 performances with early firmware that you know nothing about (and underexposed by two stops in addition...)? If you're interested by the camera, why not wait for production samples at the very least? Or maybe you just like to complain...

01-14-2008, 11:21 PM	#51
lol101 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Garennes sur Eure France Photos: Gallery Posts: 899	Originally posted by ricardobeat maybe I got it wrong, but I think those noisy shots are 100% crops. If they are, it looks really good. That is with no NR applied, you can easily get rid of the chroma noise. Considering the setup (birds, sandboarding, quad-cycles) I'd say the WOW factor of this new camera will be the fastest and more accurate predictive AF we've ever seen. And come on, if the K10D does 5fps they surely won't degrade it. I don't think they are 100% crops, some are crops (as indicated by the OP) but in any case, if there is one thing that changes dramatically from beta firmwares to "definitive" ones, it's the high ISO IQ so I wouldn't pay too much attention to these.

01-14-2008, 11:22 PM	#52
lol101 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Garennes sur Eure France Photos: Gallery Posts: 899	Originally posted by mutley No, because the buyer returned it all to me because of excessive VPN... Damn! It's a curse then... Only I am not sure if the curse is on you or us...

01-15-2008, 12:22 AM	#53
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by Ray Pulley Apparently, Canon and Nikon, with all of their resources, cash, and alleged superiority, do not always understand how to "completely eliminate" banding noise any better than Pentax, even if you spend upwards of $5,000 for one of their cameras. I think getting a usable ISO 3200 out of the new camera will be quite an accomplishment only one year or so after releasing the 10MP K10D, which I consider to be barely usable at ISO 800. Ray You could add that the ist-D also gives a significant amount of VPN/HPN when underexposed. All digital camera I tried will. Some should learn how to expose properly instead of moaning constantly in forums. Why can't that troll be banned?

01-15-2008, 12:49 AM	#54
Deni Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Tirana, Albania, South Europe, Planet Earth Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 621	Originally posted by mutley No, because the buyer returned it all to me because of excessive VPN... You can send all your worthless pentax stuff to me and I\d be happy to give you something worthy.

01-15-2008, 01:09 AM	#55
mutley Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: LI, NY Posts: 313	Originally posted by Ray Pulley As for the images they come from the following cameras: Some of the images are from official review sites that shall remain nameless Ray What's the deal with those "D300" shots where on the left side is banding, and on the right it is gone? What were they comparing?

01-15-2008, 03:13 AM	#56
schufosi777 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Kitakyushu Posts: 186	Yes the shot have amazing color gradation and an amazing smoothness as though they were laquered with a beautiflly rich varnish......but that Pentaxes trademark. Its enough for me. Wow I feel like I am back in the 80s listening to Joe Jackson with the nuclear war imminent. Sadly I am not. Just waiting for some details on what will be camera soon.

01-15-2008, 03:30 AM	#57
RMabo Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 845	Posting images from a pre-production unit only tells that the camera was able to take images, it does not tell about the actual quality of the images so I don't understand the posting of those images here. Remember the K10D introduction? We had leaked images taken with pre-production samples there too, and those images were terrible. So those images gave bad reputation to the K10D before it was released. Now the same thing happens again. Never judge images from pre-production units. There is a reason to why Dpreviews previews seldom contains images, just because they are previewing pre-production units, and the pre-production units does not have as good image quality as the final production units. We're still a few weeks to the actual product announcement, and we don't know yet when the production units will be available. It may be even more weeks. So lets wait with judgement over image quality 'till we have the "real thing".

01-15-2008, 03:52 AM	#58
feronovak Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 123	Originally posted by RMabo Posting images from a pre-production unit only tells that the camera was able to take images, it does not tell about the actual quality of the images so I don't understand the posting of those images here. Remember the K10D introduction? We had leaked images taken with pre-production samples there too, and those images were terrible. So those images gave bad reputation to the K10D before it was released. Now the same thing happens again. Never judge images from pre-production units. There is a reason to why Dpreviews previews seldom contains images, just because they are previewing pre-production units, and the pre-production units does not have as good image quality as the final production units. We're still a few weeks to the actual product announcement, and we don't know yet when the production units will be available. It may be even more weeks. So lets wait with judgement over image quality 'till we have the "real thing". those images are not even full resolution images ... talk about image quality then ... people should wait 2 weeks, I am sure that pentax will upload official tiffs/raws on their k20d site

01-15-2008, 06:09 AM	#59
Falcons Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Perth Photos: Gallery Posts: 669	Does anyone shoot in low ISO's like me? I only use high ISO when I need to and I tell you what Neat image brings any high ISO image a treat. From all the posts I see here I'm starting to think that everyone only shoots severely underexposed high ISO shots blows them up to 100% crops then spends hours upon hours studying them looking for flaws. Seriously is this what photography has become? Anyway pics whether taken with a K20D or kodak box brownie look pretty good to me and show people enjoying themselves and having fun. Take the hint - their having fun while some of you on here are crying into your cups because a pic has some noise in it - get a life. Mutley if you are so worried just buy a nikond300. I'll pre empt your answers - Why should I? (Because you are unhappy and annoying) I have 1000's of $$$ invested in Pentax glass. (so sell it. It is probably worth more than you paid for it.) and the other beauty is Pentax should build a pro level camera just for me (but at a budget price of course as I can't really afford a nikon D300)

01-15-2008, 08:05 AM	#60
lol101 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Garennes sur Eure France Photos: Gallery Posts: 899	And now to something completely different: a fish and a carpet... Time for a musical interlude of some kind...