Pentax working on second generation 645D

**Clarkey** · 05-08-2012, 06:12 PM

So, forget about the full frame mirror-less dream - bring on the mirror-less medium format!

Spare Tire · 05-08-2012, 06:30 PM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

However, about 1/3 of its depth can be shaved off; it is there due to the film chamber of the original. You could make a much more compact body; pretty much in the shape and size of a Canon/Nikon FF body. Such a camera may be more marketable to a larger audience. It could also be codeveloped with an FF body and a high-end APS body with mirrorbox and prism as their main differences (apart from sensors of course)...

If you look at the digital backs from leaf, phase one or hasselblad they are still as big as film magazines. The space where the film used to be might still be fully used for the electronics. It is true the 645d is long, but it's not a larger area than the back of an FF camera. In fact, just eyeballing this, i think it's smaller. So it's gonna stay pretty much the same like that. Of course i could be wrong, and if they made the 645 shorter i wouldn't complain.

eddie1960 · 05-08-2012, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

Yes it is great but there is potential for improvements(?). The current 645D is very much targeted at the film 645 users to such an extent that they haven't bothered much with lenses for it outside japan.

Hence, the form factor.
However, about 1/3 of its depth can be shaved off; it is there due to the film chamber of the original. You could make a much more compact body; pretty much in the shape and size of a Canon/Nikon FF body. Such a camera may be more marketable to a larger audience. It could also be codeveloped with an FF body and a high-end APS body with mirrorbox and prism as their main differences (apart from sensors of course)...

at one local dealer he lists 19 lenses available new
in canada not japan, he was recently authorized and the list just went up
the film chamber area contains electronics now, though i'm sure they could shave a bit there is still registration distance to consider.

Quicksand · 05-08-2012, 11:11 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Asahiflex

I tell you - this year it's 60 years ago since Asahi made the first Japanese 35mm SLR. Under Ricoh's wings they'll celebrate that important fact

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

...but how?

Pizza and cake in the breakroom at 2:00!

builttospill · 05-08-2012, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by Clarkey

So, forget about the full frame mirror-less dream - bring on the mirror-less medium format!

I had that same nightmare once and woke up in a sweat, then realized (hoped) Pentax would never do something so stupid, both for FF and MF.

gazonk · 05-09-2012, 01:17 AM

Originally posted by Spare Tire

If you look at the digital backs from leaf, phase one or hasselblad they are still as big as film magazines. The space where the film used to be might still be fully used for the electronics. It is true the 645d is long, but it's not a larger area than the back of an FF camera. In fact, just eyeballing this, i think it's smaller. So it's gonna stay pretty much the same like that. Of course i could be wrong, and if they made the 645 shorter i wouldn't complain.

No. Pål is right. Did you look at the cut-through 645d pictures, or the drawing posted here?

I think it would indeed be possible to make a 645d that looks and feels not much different from a Full Format camera. Maybe not quite as compact as D800 or 5d Mk III, but not far from them. Wouldn't that be great?

eurostar · 05-09-2012, 01:35 AM

Originally posted by gazonk

No. Pål is right. Did you look at the cut-through 645d pictures, or the drawing posted here?

I think it would indeed be possible to make a 645d that looks and feels not much different from a Full Format camera. Maybe not quite as compact as D800 or 5d Mk III, but not far from them. Wouldn't that be great?

I guess it depends from two things:
1) if the 645 is going mirrorless or not
2) if not, if Pentaxs viable, for the future, going towatrd a full 6x4,5 frame instead of the crop 44x33 or larger crop 48x36

If they are going mirrorless, being the customers surely more prepared than the potential buyers of a K-01, they could shorten the registration and sell an adapters for the existitng 645 lens. In this case, the dimension of the sensor are not limiting, and they could make adapters also for K lenses.

If they stay reflex, shorten the registration could make for a compact camera, but they marries forever the 44x33 crop sensor... strange, when the new lenses were all "full frame". The recent redesign of the 25mm, could be a sign that they have changed their mind...

gazonk · 05-09-2012, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by eurostar

I guess it depends from two things:
1) if the 645 is going mirrorless or not
2) if not, if Pentaxs viable, for the future, going towatrd a full 6x4,5 frame instead of the crop 44x33 or larger crop 48x36

It depends on neither of these. Look at the drawing and the cut-through images, even a full frame 645D can be made significantly shorter than the current model. A mirrorless MF camera will not make any sense for several years to come, IMHO.

RonHendriks1966 · 05-09-2012, 01:48 AM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

Yes it is great but there is potential for improvements(?). The current 645D is very much targeted at the film 645 users to such an extent that they haven't bothered much with lenses for it outside japan.

Hence, the form factor.
However, about 1/3 of its depth can be shaved off; it is there due to the film chamber of the original. You could make a much more compact body; pretty much in the shape and size of a Canon/Nikon FF body. Such a camera may be more marketable to a larger audience. It could also be codeveloped with an FF body and a high-end APS body with mirrorbox and prism as their main differences (apart from sensors of course)...

Lenses are available overhere.

When they make the design different that 645D can get a lot smaller. When the back LCD is going to the top of the camera the camera's depth can shrink to just a little more then flangedistance, sensormodule and backside. Designwise there is a lot to do with that camera (maybe something for a certain designer

)

Kunzite · 05-09-2012, 02:18 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by eurostar

I guess it depends from two things:
1) if the 645 is going mirrorless or not

You mean starting over from scratch, with zero lenses (oh, puh-lease! don't even talk about those stinky adapters!)
I can't understand why people insist Pentax should screw their customers, just to get rid of the (currently) best all-around viewfinder for a clearly inferior technology.

asw66 · 05-09-2012, 05:24 AM

Actually, I started a thread in the MF forum a while ago to find out how they would react to a mirrorless MF body. I was expecting howls of outrage, but the majority of respondents seemed to be quite open to the idea.

ogl · 05-09-2012, 05:34 AM

Originally posted by eurostar

I guess it depends from two things:
1) if the 645 is going mirrorless or not
2) if not, if Pentaxs viable, for the future, going towatrd a full 6x4,5 frame instead of the crop 44x33 or larger crop 48x36

1. No any sense at all. The second question - how to make " cold " and big sensor?
2.
a) 56*41.5 mm is size of 645 film. The digital era can offer ANY size of MF sensor.
By the way, the biggest sensor now are 53.9 *40.4 mm, 53.7 *40.4 mm (MF manufacturer called this sensor FULL MEDIUM FORMAT sensors)
and 49.1 *36.8 mm (crop 1.1).

b) By the way, ANY sensor which bigger than 24*36 mm could be called MEDIUM FORMAT sensor.

c) Kodak 44*33 mm and 45*30 mm (for S2) sensors are no in production anymore.

I think that if Pentax will use 50*37/49*36 mm sensor with 60-80 MP - it's very good.

Alizarine · 05-09-2012, 06:08 AM

Originally posted by ogl

I think that if Pentax will use 50*37/49*36 mm sensor with 60-80 MP - it's very good.

What company will make the sensors now? Does Sony make sensors this big?

eddie1960 · 05-09-2012, 06:40 AM

Originally posted by Alizarine

What company will make the sensors now? Does Sony make sensors this big?

Reality is the company that bought the Kodak division could be making a successor for them. they didn't go out of business. But there are others as well. Currently Sony doesn't make MF sensors, and MF sensor manufacturers are all CCD makers. It is possible of course to make them in cmos but the fab cost for small runs may be too high

Kunzite · 05-09-2012, 06:48 AM

Originally posted by asw66

Actually, I started a thread in the MF forum a while ago to find out how they would react to a mirrorless MF body. I was expecting howls of outrage, but the majority of respondents seemed to be quite open to the idea.

It's perfectly normal to see no such outrage/hate, even from people who strongly disagree with the idea. Were you really thinking that all those who don't like EVFs must be haters/fanboys/whatever? I doubt it.

From your thread, how many already had a 645D or are planning to buy one? I.e. willing to cope with a no-lens-system and using adapters, as well as the lack or a proper viewfinder (getting some consumer-level EVF instead).
With such a small market, losing few thousands customers because of breaking compatibility would be a huge issue.

05-09-2012, 01:48 AM	#84
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by Pål Jensen Yes it is great but there is potential for improvements(?). The current 645D is very much targeted at the film 645 users to such an extent that they haven't bothered much with lenses for it outside japan. Hence, the form factor. However, about 1/3 of its depth can be shaved off; it is there due to the film chamber of the original. You could make a much more compact body; pretty much in the shape and size of a Canon/Nikon FF body. Such a camera may be more marketable to a larger audience. It could also be codeveloped with an FF body and a high-end APS body with mirrorbox and prism as their main differences (apart from sensors of course)... Lenses are available overhere. When they make the design different that 645D can get a lot smaller. When the back LCD is going to the top of the camera the camera's depth can shrink to just a little more then flangedistance, sensormodule and backside. Designwise there is a lot to do with that camera (maybe something for a certain designer)

05-09-2012, 05:34 AM	#87
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by eurostar I guess it depends from two things: 1) if the 645 is going mirrorless or not 2) if not, if Pentaxs viable, for the future, going towatrd a full 6x4,5 frame instead of the crop 44x33 or larger crop 48x36 1. No any sense at all. The second question - how to make " cold " and big sensor? 2. a) 5641.5 mm is size of 645 film. The digital era can offer ANY size of MF sensor. By the way, the biggest sensor now are 53.9 40.4 mm, 53.7 40.4 mm (MF manufacturer called this sensor FULL MEDIUM FORMAT sensors) and 49.1 36.8 mm (crop 1.1). b) By the way, ANY sensor which bigger than 2436 mm could be called MEDIUM FORMAT sensor. c) Kodak 4433 mm and 4530 mm (for S2) sensors are no in production anymore. I think that if Pentax will use 5037/4936 mm sensor with 60-80 MP - it's very good. Last edited by ogl; 05-09-2012 at 05:42 AM.*

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05-08-2012, 06:12 PM	#76
Clarkey Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Brampton, ON, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,456	So, forget about the full frame mirror-less dream - bring on the mirror-less medium format!

05-08-2012, 06:30 PM	#77
Spare Tire Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Montréal Posts: 118	Originally posted by Pål Jensen However, about 1/3 of its depth can be shaved off; it is there due to the film chamber of the original. You could make a much more compact body; pretty much in the shape and size of a Canon/Nikon FF body. Such a camera may be more marketable to a larger audience. It could also be codeveloped with an FF body and a high-end APS body with mirrorbox and prism as their main differences (apart from sensors of course)... If you look at the digital backs from leaf, phase one or hasselblad they are still as big as film magazines. The space where the film used to be might still be fully used for the electronics. It is true the 645d is long, but it's not a larger area than the back of an FF camera. In fact, just eyeballing this, i think it's smaller. So it's gonna stay pretty much the same like that. Of course i could be wrong, and if they made the 645 shorter i wouldn't complain.

05-08-2012, 07:39 PM	#78
eddie1960 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,666	Originally posted by Pål Jensen Yes it is great but there is potential for improvements(?). The current 645D is very much targeted at the film 645 users to such an extent that they haven't bothered much with lenses for it outside japan. Hence, the form factor. However, about 1/3 of its depth can be shaved off; it is there due to the film chamber of the original. You could make a much more compact body; pretty much in the shape and size of a Canon/Nikon FF body. Such a camera may be more marketable to a larger audience. It could also be codeveloped with an FF body and a high-end APS body with mirrorbox and prism as their main differences (apart from sensors of course)... at one local dealer he lists 19 lenses available new in canada not japan, he was recently authorized and the list just went up the film chamber area contains electronics now, though i'm sure they could shave a bit there is still registration distance to consider.

05-08-2012, 11:11 PM - 1 Like	#79
Quicksand Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Central Ohio (formerly SF Bay Area) Posts: 1,519	Originally posted by Asahiflex I tell you - this year it's 60 years ago since Asahi made the first Japanese 35mm SLR. Under Ricoh's wings they'll celebrate that important fact Originally posted by Pål Jensen ...but how? Pizza and cake in the breakroom at 2:00!

05-08-2012, 11:52 PM	#80
builttospill Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Utah, Idaho Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,398	Originally posted by Clarkey So, forget about the full frame mirror-less dream - bring on the mirror-less medium format! I had that same nightmare once and woke up in a sweat, then realized (hoped) Pentax would never do something so stupid, both for FF and MF.

05-09-2012, 01:17 AM	#81
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by Spare Tire If you look at the digital backs from leaf, phase one or hasselblad they are still as big as film magazines. The space where the film used to be might still be fully used for the electronics. It is true the 645d is long, but it's not a larger area than the back of an FF camera. In fact, just eyeballing this, i think it's smaller. So it's gonna stay pretty much the same like that. Of course i could be wrong, and if they made the 645 shorter i wouldn't complain. No. Pål is right. Did you look at the cut-through 645d pictures, or the drawing posted here? I think it would indeed be possible to make a 645d that looks and feels not much different from a Full Format camera. Maybe not quite as compact as D800 or 5d Mk III, but not far from them. Wouldn't that be great?

05-09-2012, 01:35 AM	#82
eurostar Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Albareto, Italy Photos: Gallery Posts: 819	Originally posted by gazonk No. Pål is right. Did you look at the cut-through 645d pictures, or the drawing posted here? I think it would indeed be possible to make a 645d that looks and feels not much different from a Full Format camera. Maybe not quite as compact as D800 or 5d Mk III, but not far from them. Wouldn't that be great? I guess it depends from two things: 1) if the 645 is going mirrorless or not 2) if not, if Pentaxs viable, for the future, going towatrd a full 6x4,5 frame instead of the crop 44x33 or larger crop 48x36 If they are going mirrorless, being the customers surely more prepared than the potential buyers of a K-01, they could shorten the registration and sell an adapters for the existitng 645 lens. In this case, the dimension of the sensor are not limiting, and they could make adapters also for K lenses. If they stay reflex, shorten the registration could make for a compact camera, but they marries forever the 44x33 crop sensor... strange, when the new lenses were all "full frame". The recent redesign of the 25mm, could be a sign that they have changed their mind...

05-09-2012, 01:43 AM	#83
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by eurostar I guess it depends from two things: 1) if the 645 is going mirrorless or not 2) if not, if Pentaxs viable, for the future, going towatrd a full 6x4,5 frame instead of the crop 44x33 or larger crop 48x36 It depends on neither of these. Look at the drawing and the cut-through images, even a full frame 645D can be made significantly shorter than the current model. A mirrorless MF camera will not make any sense for several years to come, IMHO.

05-09-2012, 02:18 AM - 2 Likes	#85
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by eurostar I guess it depends from two things: 1) if the 645 is going mirrorless or not You mean starting over from scratch, with zero lenses (oh, puh-lease! don't even talk about those stinky adapters!) I can't understand why people insist Pentax should screw their customers, just to get rid of the (currently) best all-around viewfinder for a clearly inferior technology.

05-09-2012, 05:24 AM	#86
asw66 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 347	Actually, I started a thread in the MF forum a while ago to find out how they would react to a mirrorless MF body. I was expecting howls of outrage, but the majority of respondents seemed to be quite open to the idea.

05-09-2012, 06:08 AM	#88
Alizarine Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Manila Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,185	Originally posted by ogl I think that if Pentax will use 5037/4936 mm sensor with 60-80 MP - it's very good. What company will make the sensors now? Does Sony make sensors this big?

05-09-2012, 06:40 AM	#89
eddie1960 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,666	Originally posted by Alizarine What company will make the sensors now? Does Sony make sensors this big? Reality is the company that bought the Kodak division could be making a successor for them. they didn't go out of business. But there are others as well. Currently Sony doesn't make MF sensors, and MF sensor manufacturers are all CCD makers. It is possible of course to make them in cmos but the fab cost for small runs may be too high

05-09-2012, 06:48 AM	#90
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by asw66 Actually, I started a thread in the MF forum a while ago to find out how they would react to a mirrorless MF body. I was expecting howls of outrage, but the majority of respondents seemed to be quite open to the idea. It's perfectly normal to see no such outrage/hate, even from people who strongly disagree with the idea. Were you really thinking that all those who don't like EVFs must be haters/fanboys/whatever? I doubt it. From your thread, how many already had a 645D or are planning to buy one? I.e. willing to cope with a no-lens-system and using adapters, as well as the lack or a proper viewfinder (getting some consumer-level EVF instead). With such a small market, losing few thousands customers because of breaking compatibility would be a huge issue.