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05-22-2012, 04:51 PM   #271
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QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
I guess you believe in god and magic too.
Hum...The quote you made does not content my words...

05-22-2012, 04:57 PM   #272
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
You know that's exactly what he meant, c'mon.
Well said. Drives me nuts the way people pull other people up on the equivalent FL thing.
05-22-2012, 05:53 PM   #273
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
You know that's exactly what he meant, c'mon.
I suspected, but getting the math and nomenclature wrong from the start made me wonder if he's mixing it up all the way through. If you're going to start spitting numbers, get the context and nomenclature right or no one will trust the numbers behind your statements.
05-22-2012, 06:03 PM - 1 Like   #274
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QuoteOriginally posted by ihasa Quote
Well said. Drives me nuts the way people pull other people up on the equivalent FL thing.
The thing about equivalency is there are probably 50 ways to say the same thing, and we all understand the concept, yet some folks can't stand the argument being explained in ways other than the terms in which they think of it.

05-22-2012, 07:16 PM   #275
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QuoteOriginally posted by noser Quote
What I've found is the button spacing and placement was shoved so far to the right - I assume from the larger LCD - that I find some of the controls hard to use now. The ISO button is the most frustrating. I use a handstrap, and find that in comparison to the K20D I have to move my palm further away from the body to get at some of the buttons.
Yeah, it takes getting used to, but as with everything, as long as the features are available and readily accessible, it's just a matter of conditioning. I've become accustomed to the button layout on the K-5, and am happier now that the K-r is more in line with it compared to the K-x. But then, I don't have a hand grip, and find it quite easy to access the top buttons.

QuoteOriginally posted by noser Quote
I just find the whole mentality of squeezing the physical size at the expense of ergonomics to be wrong-headed. I don't want a cute factor and fun colors, and I don't want the cheapo feel of the 5DmkII either. The K5 feels solid, but it's too fiddly. I miss the door latch on the SD slot, and the left side port cover is ... cheap.
I thought so too when the K-7 came out, but again have gotten used to the SD card door and don't mind it any more. It hasn't broken or loosened on me yet, so I think it's well constructed. As for the 5DMkII, interesting that you consider it 'cheap' in build/feel. I found it quite a solid camera, but just didn't like its clunky operation and button layout (in fact I despise its UI). Anyway, what I'd like to see is the same robust build and solid feel to Pentax cameras, just with a touch more responsiveness (more instant image preview, quicker image deletion process and SAFOX X that has minimal quirks but just does the job)...
05-22-2012, 07:40 PM   #276
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Yeah, it takes getting used to, but as with everything, as long as the features are available and readily accessible, it's just a matter of conditioning. I've become accustomed to the button layout on the K-5, and am happier now that the K-r is more in line with it compared to the K-x. But then, I don't have a hand grip, and find it quite easy to access the top buttons.



I thought so too when the K-7 came out, but again have gotten used to the SD card door and don't mind it any more. It hasn't broken or loosened on me yet, so I think it's well constructed. As for the 5DMkII, interesting that you consider it 'cheap' in build/feel. I found it quite a solid camera, but just didn't like its clunky operation and button layout (in fact I despise its UI). Anyway, what I'd like to see is the same robust build and solid feel to Pentax cameras, just with a touch more responsiveness (more instant image preview, quicker image deletion process and SAFOX X that has minimal quirks but just does the job)...
The card door on the K-5 is like the one on the K200d. I do like the door on the K20d though.
05-22-2012, 08:04 PM   #277
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QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
This will be my only reply.
I don't want to add on anymore to this FF/D800/D600 nonsense in a happy Pentax new release thread.

This is again in theory.
Practically, I've not seen 2 or more folks shoot with APS-C and FF cams on a photo outing with the FF one producing obviously better results than the APS-C users.
I was shooting this weekend on APS-C at 2.8. DOF was still way too large and the background was distracting.

Mrs. ElJamoquio had a slower lens. Her pics, which are normally quite good, were even worse than mine.
05-22-2012, 08:07 PM   #278
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QuoteOriginally posted by maxfield_photo Quote
The thing about equivalency is there are probably 50 ways to say the same thing, and we all understand the concept, yet some folks can't stand the argument being explained in ways other than the terms in which they think of it.
I think everyone here understands the focal length equivalency.

I think almost everyone here understands the aperture 'equivalency'.

I think only a few understand&believe the ISO equivalency.

05-22-2012, 08:13 PM   #279
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I think everyone here understands the focal length equivalency.

I think almost everyone here understands the aperture 'equivalency'.

I think only a few understand&believe the ISO equivalency.
Agree. Outside of this forum there is almost universal ingnorance on it. I've been called a FF fanboi (I don't own one), a troll, an idiot, and a monkey for mentioning it; seems a portion of the m4/3's shooters are particularly against the whole notion.
05-22-2012, 08:34 PM   #280
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ISO equivalency?

iso100 is iso100 right,what is there to speculate about?
05-22-2012, 08:39 PM   #281
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I think only a few understand&believe the ISO equivalency.
FF High ISO (12,800) Juicy'ness here -> Sigma 70-200 2.8 OS Review Preview | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Doesn't get any better than that, a somewhat noiseless photo at 12,800 ISO...
05-22-2012, 08:41 PM   #282
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f/2.8 is f/2.8 and 50mm is 50mm too.

But

f/2.8 on APS-C results in the same DOF as f/4.2 on FF
50mm on APS-C has the same FOV as 75mm on FF
ISO100 has the same SNR as ISO200 on FF

So an image taken as 50mm, f/2.8, ISO100 on APS-C is equivalent to taking it at 75mm, f/4.2, ISO200 on FF.

This is something that, for example, Steve Huff does not get at all. All the comparisions he does between different format cameras shows he doesn't understand this concept. (However he takes great pictures and has a great blog).
05-22-2012, 09:07 PM   #283
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Shouldn't you then name it noise equivalent?

You seem to suggest that ISO100 with FF sensor has a different sensitivity as ISO100 with APS-C, at least that was what i was thinking about. but i get it now.

Nice you show it like that now under each other actually
50mm f/2.8 1/60 ISO100 (aps-c) is of course very close to 75mm f/4.2 1/60 ISO200 (FF)

So both side dont seem to have an obvious advantage.


ps. dont forget that APS-C sensors are sometimes 1 generation ahead of FF sensors so that should take care if the little ISO change you have to do, to get it right.

Last edited by Anvh; 05-22-2012 at 09:12 PM.
05-22-2012, 09:21 PM   #284
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
Shouldn't you then name it noise equivalent?
That's probably a better name.
05-22-2012, 09:24 PM   #285
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
50mm f/2.8 1/60 ISO100 (aps-c) is of course very close to 75mm f/4.2 1/60 ISO200 (FF)

So both side dont seem to have an obvious advantage.
1) most lenses are better at f/4.2 than 2.8
2) if you'd like better quality, you can go down to ISO 100, etc., and get the benefit of better quality on FF
3) if you'd like a narrower field of view, you can crop the FF with less loss in quality compared to a APS-C
4) on the other hand, if you'd prefer smaller lenses, you can use small and inexpensive lenses on FF and still have adequate DOF control
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