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05-23-2012, 07:28 AM   #301
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QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
Really?
I found when examine D800 RAW I can pull up to 5 stops, compared to K-5's 4 stops with acceptable noise and colors.
I was referring to the uploaded pictures. My own files show much better signal to noise on the D800 to the K-5. Noise hardly seems a factor thus far.

05-23-2012, 08:43 AM   #302
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QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
It's all about effective SNR. We have basically the same sensor as in K-5. But with FF sensor you have 2.25 times more pixels for the same subject. For each sensel we have a probability: P(|px-mx|<ε), where the mx is the "real" value, and px is the value that is taking with the sensel, the ε is the acceptable accuracy. The P is different for different ISOs, of course. So, you have 2.25 times more pixels to show exactly the same information. And thus you have 2.25 times more chances to get the proper value.
That's not true, you've more surface area but not necessary more pixels.
05-23-2012, 09:28 AM   #303
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Nomenclature is (nearly) correct, but:
QuoteQuote:
K30, K5n, K3 and maybe full-frame at Photokina...
"Sorry,complete nonsense
K30 is next, everybody knows it i think.....
than the next body is to see in September, not a day earlier.
The overnext body beginning of 2013, it is NO 35mm Body."
K-30: 06.12 (now leaked)
K-5n: 09.12 (Photokina)
K-3: 03.13
With Sony, Nikon and Canon probably developing "low-budget" FF-models, I dislike the plans of yet another APS-C (K-3) in this price range.
An additional question: Are 24(+) MP on APS-C really desirable?
05-23-2012, 10:12 AM   #304
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
That's not true, you've more surface area but not necessary more pixels.
Well. Pixels will get more photons in this case. But I meant D800 vs K-5/D7000/etc

05-23-2012, 10:30 AM   #305
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
An aperture is aperture. f-stop is f-stop. There is no "equivalence".
I'm not a big fan of the vocabulary, either, and I think it's the source of a lot of the debates here.
05-23-2012, 11:32 AM   #306
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QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
Really?
I found when examine D800 RAW I can pull up to 5 stops, compared to K-5's 4 stops with acceptable noise and colors.
I don't doubt that. But have a look at my K-5 vs 5d mk iii samples above. I think they show quite clearly that it's possible to pull a little more out of the shadows from K-5 than from 5d mk iii. It really should have been the other way round, so Canon seems to fall behind Sony (and whoever Nikon uses) in sensor development.
05-23-2012, 11:41 AM   #307
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
I don't doubt that. But have a look at my K-5 vs 5d mk iii samples above. I think they show quite clearly that it's possible to pull a little more out of the shadows from K-5 than from 5d mk iii. It really should have been the other way round, so Canon seems to fall behind Sony (and whoever Nikon uses) in sensor development.
Nikon uses Sony sensors (though the rumoured D600 may be Aptiva who AFAIK have not yet made a FF sensor)
Canon has lagged on sensor performance for a few years now (ever since the K5 sensor most certainly) not sure why because for a long while they were the best sensors
05-23-2012, 11:57 AM   #308
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
Nikon uses Sony sensors
I think so too, but it's always the source of somewhat dispute, so I tried to be diplomatic

05-23-2012, 12:13 PM   #309
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
I think so too, but it's always the source of somewhat dispute, so I tried to be diplomatic
People on nikon boards like to dispute it, but aside from processor differences the raw sensor should be the same as the ones from sony Pentax uses (for instance on the D5100 Nikon stuck with a 14 bit processor whereas Pentax has gone with 12 bit - probably why the D5100 slightly outscored the K-01 on Dxomark 80 to 79 the big difference being in DR and a little in iso - same way k5 beat the others - 14 bit does make a difference)
05-23-2012, 01:13 PM   #310
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Remember that the Nikon D700 has a Nikon FF inside... Not a Sony
05-23-2012, 01:30 PM   #311
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QuoteOriginally posted by clover Quote
Remember that the Nikon D700 has a Nikon FF inside... Not a Sony
Are you certain it wasn't just fabbed to Nikon design specs, they have a sensor design partnership at the FF level I thought. I didn't think Nikon had a fab plant at all
The D4 for instance is a Nikon design but Sony does the Fab so it would still derive from Sony tech

there is no clear cut answer

this is the info at nikon rumors - where many believe it is sony, but there are alternatives. One thing is certain they don't have Fab capability, though they can design and outsource the wafer production

http://nikonrumors.com/2011/01/26/the-sensors-of-the-d3-d3s-d700-and-d3100-a...by-nikon.aspx/
05-23-2012, 04:48 PM   #312
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I'm not a big fan of the vocabulary, either, and I think it's the source of a lot of the debates here.
The problems stem from the misuse of the correct terms or their replacement with the wrong terms. The vocabulary itself is correct: FOV equivalence, DOF equivalence, noise equivalence.

There is no such thing as (for example) aperture equivalence. Such non-existent terms should not be used in place of those perfectly good ones that already exist to serve this function.
05-23-2012, 07:48 PM   #313
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
FOV equivalence, DOF equivalence, noise equivalence
An equivalent noise measure is also largely subjective because it depends on multiple variables, such as the sensor's DR, filters, etc. The whole point of ASA/ISO is to set a standard regardless. We can generally say that an FF sensor has 1 stop better ISO than an APS-C sensor, but again, sensors of what era and tech advances, pixel count, micro lenses, etc. (i.e. more variables). Not so easy.

By distinction, FOV and DOF and CoC are measurable, optical physics.
05-23-2012, 07:58 PM   #314
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QuoteOriginally posted by froeschle Quote
K-30: 06.12 (now leaked)
not really leaked, it's official (at least with most of the world except Japan)
05-23-2012, 08:01 PM   #315
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You can measure noise as well, it's harder to compare because you've more variables but you can do it.
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