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05-26-2012, 02:41 PM   #436
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
The Voigtländer Nokton 25mm f/0.95 is actually in µ4/3 mount, not 4/3. µ4/3 register is shorter than 4/3's, 19.25mm instead of 38.67mm. Hence the possibility to design such Nokton.
Thanks for pointing that out

05-26-2012, 02:49 PM   #437
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Consensus on this forum?

Well I believe that there is room for an upgraded K-5. So if that would be a K-5n (16mp sensor and just new AF and electronics in the same body) that would be a small but logical step. There are people who want that and even sell their K-5 to upgrade to K-5n.

Next to that there is also room for a topmodel (lets call that K-3). I hope they put in a more advanced chip then is in K-30/K-01 that is faster (dual core?) and can do some more tricks (like supporting USB 3.0, HDMI-out during filming and faster processing). This new electronic system can also be used in a future Full Frame and 645D upgrade camera. I still would like to see in APS-C the same 16 megapixel sensor. Electronics are expensive, so this would make the K-3 more expensive then K-5n, but also more of a sports/action-camera (maybe even more channel read-out on the sensor to get a faster fps up to 8fps or so).
hmm hehe

But would that really sell well? Sure there are maybe a dozen or two vocal people here.. but would it sell in the 1000s?

If the K5n is real and does have better AF (esp in low light) and has a video AF well then... what is the point of people buying the K30? *I* would rather spend 250 more for mic input for shooting vids and 14bit RAW depth (over K30's no mic input and 12bit raw) but I'm not sure how many others would..

So thinking moneywise.. with the K5 body currently around 1100 USD, unless the K3 costs significantly more, most people are just going to spring for the K3 if it is going to be as big a leap as some are rumoring (FF, Better video, super AF, Dual SD slots, etc) over a K5n OR K30 will skewer sales of the K5n since the K30 on the surface seems pretty close as is and costs $250 less.

That's why I wonder if the K5n really exists... I'm not sure there is enough space for it..


I'm just getting into the community but it seems most of the rumors seem to be at or after photokina.. reminds me in the music production world most of the rumors are around NAMM conventions (especially Winter NAMM).
05-26-2012, 03:17 PM   #438
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I'm just getting into the community but it seems most of the rumors seem to be at or after photokina.. reminds me in the music production world most of the rumors are around NAMM conventions (especially Winter NAMM).
indeed. Photokina always push brand to show the best among the best. Sometime it's finish product, sometimes prototypes. Anyway, always brings lots of rumors and speculation.

QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
So thinking moneywise.. with the K5 body currently around 1100 USD, unless the K3 costs significantly more, most people are just going to spring for the K3 if it is going to be as big a leap as some are rumoring (FF, Better video, super AF, Dual SD slots, etc) over a K5n OR K30 will skewer sales of the K5n since the K30 on the surface seems pretty close as is and costs $250 less.
look at Canon pricing policy (in Europe, in euro):

1100D : 499€
600D : 650€
60D : 850€
7D : 1250€

the first three body are close in price (150-200€), and from each one to the other you have in fact small difference : sensor, AF, ergo, etc ... but each body sell well.
Ricoh may go for the same policy :

k-r remplacement : 499€ (like the K-x was first)
K30 : 799€
k5 remplacement : 1100€ (or something around that price. The k5 is 850€ now)

with steps small enought people are ready too spend a little more on impulsive buying (lots of people buy dslr and never use it, or in green mod only). that a good strategy for expending the brand and benefice.
05-26-2012, 03:45 PM   #439
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Interesting the pricing policy. However, I will say Canon is a much larger company than Ricoh/Pentax on camera store shelves. They have many more buyers thus that allows for more tiers. Pentax isn't quite there yet.. though I'm sure they have plans.


Case in point.. a buddy went to a kindergarten school graduation ceremony and he noticed A LOT of women with the same canon dslr kit and bag.. I guess a store must have sold a bundle of those things... and he said they all looked confused trying to figure out how to work their cameras hehe

Which also makes me think that perhaps (specs wise) Pentax is going for the more 'serious' photographers than selling to soccer moms who only will use 1/5th of the abilities of the camera they own (if that much) and probably only take photos of their kids at events on 'auto' mode.

05-26-2012, 03:48 PM   #440
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
How do you come up with such a price for an adapter?
We aren't talking about nikon or sony adapter with their build in focusing system, we are talking about an extension tube like adapter, simply device that extent the register and connects the contacts. This can never be more the $80.

What's your proof that lenses will be more expensive for an APS-C design mount?
And yes 30mm f/1 would be cheaper on for example 4/3 mount then it would be on a k mount. Just look at the fast lenses on the FF mount and then compare them with fast lenses on mounts with smaller register.
here example
Leica DG Summilux 25mm f/1.4 $539 @ B&H
Cannon EF 24mm f/1.4L $1,629 @ B&H
Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24mm f/1.4G $1,999 @ B&H

Sure nikon and canon are wide angle lenses and the leica is a normal lens but that's precisely the difference that i mean.
Why would we need to spend over $1,500 for an FF lens while we can spend $500 for a lens that uses a mount designed for the sensor.
That's the dilemma we APS-C shooter stuck with an FF mount are living with.

Well yes IF pentax will make an FF then indeed keep the K-mount for sure, all i'm saying that this COULD be an alternative if pentax decide not to make FF. It just doesn't make sense to use a mount not designed for the formatt.
Someone here said using 645 mount for FF camera and this is what you said.

So 645 lenses on FF camera is an epic fail but it's superb to use FF lenses on a smaller sensor, please point out the logic of that.

About 4/3th i just proved it here above, the 4/3th lens is 1/3th of the price of roughly the same FF lens
So Pentax should change its mount, not to a modern, full-electric one - but retaining the mechanical aperture lever and the in-body AF motor? Just to make it slightly wider?
As Mistral said, that "Leica" is an m4/3 lens. Big difference, because it's the short registration distance that allows for such a low price. Also, it's not ultra fast - being "only" f/1.4. And last but not least, you should compare it with a 50mm f/2 - because you wanted something "equivalent", right? At least, try to be consistent.

If you would take some time and compare lens prices, you would have the answer. How about... a 25mm f/4 for $5000? Is that a competitive price? Is that a fast lens?
It also seems you either don't really know the Pentax K-mount lens range, or you're purposefully ignoring the APS-C lenses. Breaking news: the K-mount can easily accommodate APS-C cameras and lenses, and Pentax have both.

Yeah, you "proved" lots of things, like with the "4/3" lens
05-26-2012, 04:24 PM   #441
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
That's why I wonder if the K5n really exists... I'm not sure there is enough space for it..
Nikon has 7 models under $1700. I think there is room for 4 Pertax models. And when we ask if they will sell we're falling into the trap of static analysis. Adding new models with the value based on more features at a price - and doing the over and over again - develops a Pentax reputation, Pentax buzz and even DPReview support for Pentax as a credible brand. That buzz, that momentum gathers new sales at the margin, which adds credibility, which gathers support . . . Compact, durable, WR, great IQ, different cameras for thinking users.

Remember, Ricoh's confirmed plan is to regain 10% market share and they think there is room for 4 Pentax dSLR's.

I believe Pentax knows what they are doing and now that they have a comitted parent company they can do it.
05-26-2012, 04:54 PM   #442
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Remember, Ricoh's confirmed plan is to regain 10% market share and they think there is room for 4 Pentax dSLR's..
Where and when did the say that? Just curious....
05-26-2012, 05:14 PM   #443
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Nikon has 7 models under $1700. I think there is room for 4 Pertax models. And when we ask if they will sell we're falling into the trap of static analysis. Adding new models with the value based on more features at a price - and doing the over and over again - develops a Pentax reputation, Pentax buzz and even DPReview support for Pentax as a credible brand. That buzz, that momentum gathers new sales at the margin, which adds credibility, which gathers support . . . Compact, durable, WR, great IQ, different cameras for thinking users.

Remember, Ricoh's confirmed plan is to regain 10% market share and they think there is room for 4 Pentax dSLR's.

I believe Pentax knows what they are doing and now that they have a comitted parent company they can do it.
Yes, but Nikon also has much more market share than Pentax.. they can afford to have a large lineup.

Each camera body though costs money to produce and to support even if the internals are mostly the same right? Having too similar versions is partly what almost killed General Motors for instance. There wasn't a lot of difference from a Chevrolet to a Pontiac to an Oldsmobile. Once they reduced brands they got it (somewhat) together financially. Hmm I can see 4 Pentax bodies WHEN they have 10% share or so.. but really not before. Then again, I'm sure the K30 will be a BIG hit so maybe sooner than later they'll be in a comfortable spot. (I know I'm buying one once prices some down a tad!)

When I got my first dslr (which was.. uhh a mere 2 years ago haha) I looked at Nikon then Canon and Sony.. Then a friend suggested Pentax so I looked into them.. The Kx was the current beginner dslr for Pentax at the time.. What sold me were In-body stabilization, PRICE (was $500 USD for the kit!!), low light performance, AA battery usage in that order (reviews were favorable).

Price (body and lens) is no difference these days from Nikon/Canon.. which is a big shame imo. Actually some of the 3rd party stuff costs a little more for Pentax (metz flashes for example). I think price was a big selling point on the lower end for Pentax. If was in the store now looking for my first dslr I'd probably just go for Nikon since the pricing is around the same and I know the Nikon brand name (silly yes, but beginners don't have a lot of frame of reference). My dad back in the 70s had a Nikon slr so that is what I knew when someone mentions SLR; seeing that Nikon logo on the front of his old camera.

Actually, last year he said he wanted to get back into it and wanted a dslr.. I was the one who got to decide what camera to get him and chose the d3100 over the Kr. Why!?! Two reasons: (1) Better video features (AF and 1080p) and (a) Nikon name.

Again probably seems silly and to which I'd agree somewhat.. but I'll say don't underestimate the power of a brand name in selling a product. I got lots of fragile 'well.. I guess Pentax makes good cameras...I am sure you researched this before buying a Pentax....'-like comments whenever he saw me with my Pentax camera starting out.

And Pentax, largely, doesn't have brand name appeal when it comes to beginners, so they need to sell themselves better. One of the best ways (imho) is by pricing yourself lower than the competition. Come on, Pentax, don't follow in the footsteps of your larger rivals.. they will eat you whole that way.

05-26-2012, 05:26 PM   #444
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Where and when did the say that? Just curious....
Adam's interview at CP+ I believe.
05-26-2012, 05:54 PM   #445
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Hmm I can see 4 Pentax bodies WHEN they have 10% share or so.. but really not before. Then again, I'm sure the K30 will be a BIG hit so maybe sooner than later they'll be in a comfortable spot. (I know I'm buying one once prices some down a tad!)
But can they increase the market share significantly, with only 2 K-mount DSLRs? Can they go anywhere, without putting a real effort?
Well, we know where Hoya left them - the same strategy won't work.
05-26-2012, 05:58 PM   #446
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Yes, but Nikon also has much more market share than Pentax.. they can afford to have a large lineup.
There you go again with the static analysis. Nikon has a large market share because they have 7 bodies below $1200. Price/features = VALUE, which is more than competitive. Compact, durable, WR, great IQ, different cameras.

Ricoh plans to own and build Pentax for more than just one Fiscal Year
05-26-2012, 06:45 PM   #447
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QuoteOriginally posted by Vormulac Quote
What cameras are you talking about? I've never had any trouble metering.
Metering is very unreliable with manual lenses as documented extensively. I don't think I've ever used one where I didn't have to dial in compensation so I am forced to use M rather than A mode.

The crippled mount relies on a Green Button to get the job done. No need for this on systems like M43. The result is that my manual Pentax lenses are easier to use and meter more accurately on Olympus bodies. This should be cause for embarrassment.

Those who "don't see" these problems haven't been looking very hard. Every Pentax camera has a Green Button that is an admission of the problem. I didn't see it either until I opened my mind to other possibilities.

Last edited by rparmar; 05-26-2012 at 06:54 PM.
05-26-2012, 06:47 PM   #448
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
What truly amazes me about these recurring mount discussions (and they seem to come up and die back down about every 60 days) is that we and in particular the MFT advocates and MILC advocates - we think we know better than Ricoh knows what it should do with its $250mm company (cash purcahse price plus planned capital allocations).

If Ricoh is so benighted that they can't even make this basic decision - how many millimeters should our cameras have between the mount flange and the sensor - if they can't even get that right then the enterprise should be a total loss.

But I bet they do know what they are doing.
The only conclusion one can come to, following your logic, is that one should never criticise what anyone with more money, more experience, more fame, more [fill in the blank], because those qualities ensure their correctness.

This is a common logical fallacy.

Last edited by rparmar; 05-26-2012 at 06:54 PM.
05-26-2012, 07:27 PM   #449
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
The only conclusion one can come to, following your logic, is that one should never criticise what anyone with more money, more experience, more fame, more [fill in the blank], because those qualities ensure their correctness.

This is a common logical fallacy.
Yaa thats the conclusion you would draw from it but not everyone is slow on imbibing what other person is writing.

He has not said anything of that sorts. What he has said is those who work in Ricoh do know their stuff, they are working in that company because they go through a process of hiring which makes sure to hire people who at least have basic understanding of things.

As an engineer who worked in research department of Japanese company I can tell you that people who work there do indeed understand their subject. For example I do not know many people who know my subject or my field of expertise more than me. (In fact my next boss is only 1 person I can think who knows my field more than me).

You are free to criticize anything or anybody, but your opinion won't hold any weight compared to guys who do these things for living.
05-26-2012, 09:33 PM   #450
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
There you go again with the static analysis. Nikon has a large market share because they have 7 bodies below $1200. Price/features = VALUE, which is more than competitive. Compact, durable, WR, great IQ, different cameras.

Ricoh plans to own and build Pentax for more than just one Fiscal Year
A simple view, yes, but not singularly focused. One must fully utilize what they have before they grow. They need to hit different price points but there has to be a point where releasing X number of camera bodies is costing more than generating. I suspect X is <= 4 for Pentax right now.

If it was as simple as throwing as many bodies below a price range then Pentax could be neck and neck with the likes of Nikon by the end of the year right? Now THAT is a static analysis. But we both know extra bodies costs extra money to design, convince/sell to retailers, advertise, etc. It takes baby steps than dramatic leaps which is partly what I'm getting at.. this is going to take YEARS and pricing is a big factor.

You don't release 7 dslr bodies into the wild and wait for the money to roll in. You have the cart before the horse -- Nikon can only do what they do because they already have the large market share... they can afford the extra weight of designing/supporting extra products and they have strong channels with retailers to push their products.

$900 USD for entrance into Pentaxland is NOT competitive. Because, at the end of the day, novices are going to look at brand names and prices such as:
''Nikon D3200 24.2 MP CMOS Digital SLR with 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AF-S DX VR NIKKOR Zoom Lens' for $700 USD
and
"Canon EOS Rebel T3i 18 MP CMOS Digital SLR Camera and DIGIC 4 Imaging" for $750 USD
or even
"Canon EOS Rebel T1i 15.1 MP CMOS Digital SLR Camera" for $600 USD

and then perhaps see
'Pentax K-30 Weather-Sealed 16 MP CMOS Digital SLR' for $900 USD

and they will move to the Nikons and the Canons! Why wouldn't they? Branding, megapixels, and price will win at the cash register over WR, IQ, Image Noise, Bit Depth or any other factor that really does matter in photography; Nikon and Canon control the market on completely clueless shoppers who just want a 'big' camera and I'm going to wager its rather BIG business.

Go to any park, little league baseball, football, or other various youth event and see how many people have dSLRs and are hand holding them like they are a cellphone. It will blow your mind. Pentax needs in on this market almost as much as they need pro and semi pro shooters.. Lower the price on the low end. Or provide a lower tier product but not 7.

Last edited by mee; 05-26-2012 at 10:24 PM.
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