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05-28-2012, 06:08 AM   #481
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Metering is very unreliable with manual lenses as documented extensively. I don't think I've ever used one where I didn't have to dial in compensation so I am forced to use M rather than A mode.

The crippled mount relies on a Green Button to get the job done. No need for this on systems like M43. The result is that my manual Pentax lenses are easier to use and meter more accurately on Olympus bodies. This should be cause for embarrassment.

Those who "don't see" these problems haven't been looking very hard. Every Pentax camera has a Green Button that is an admission of the problem. I didn't see it either until I opened my mind to other possibilities.
You've had problems, I haven't - that's a pity for you, but don't assume for one second that I lack the capacity for noticing an incorrectly metered shot. I suggest you open that mind a tiny bit further to entertain the possiblity that your experience is not the only valid one.

05-28-2012, 06:12 AM   #482
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QuoteOriginally posted by ENicolas Quote
Yes - but since they seem to get their sensors from Sony maybe they can get their OLED EVF, as well.
But why substitute and unecessary EVF for an OVF?

Just to get rid of the mirror...but keep the same registration and K-mount backwards compatibility?

PDAF is faster focussing than CDAF (still, and for some time to come).

The advantages of FF mirrorless dwindle rapidly unless you create an all-new mount.
05-28-2012, 06:13 AM   #483
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Why not rebadging Sony cameras, then?
Sony's OLED EVF, is, IMHO, nowhere near a good "FF" OVF.
In good light it works very well.

In poor light it is likewise poor. So much so that critical focussing and framing is not possible.
05-28-2012, 06:21 AM   #484
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
A simple view, yes, but not singularly focused. One must fully utilize what they have before they grow. They need to hit different price points but there has to be a point where releasing X number of camera bodies is costing more than generating. I suspect X is <= 4 for Pentax right now.

If it was as simple as throwing as many bodies below a price range then Pentax could be neck and neck with the likes of Nikon by the end of the year right? Now THAT is a static analysis. But we both know extra bodies costs extra money to design, convince/sell to retailers, advertise, etc. It takes baby steps than dramatic leaps which is partly what I'm getting at.. this is going to take YEARS and pricing is a big factor.

You don't release 7 dslr bodies into the wild and wait for the money to roll in. You have the cart before the horse -- Nikon can only do what they do because they already have the large market share... they can afford the extra weight of designing/supporting extra products and they have strong channels with retailers to push their products.

$900 USD for entrance into Pentaxland is NOT competitive. Because, at the end of the day, novices are going to look at brand names and prices such as:
''Nikon D3200 24.2 MP CMOS Digital SLR with 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AF-S DX VR NIKKOR Zoom Lens' for $700 USD
and
"Canon EOS Rebel T3i 18 MP CMOS Digital SLR Camera and DIGIC 4 Imaging" for $750 USD
or even
"Canon EOS Rebel T1i 15.1 MP CMOS Digital SLR Camera" for $600 USD

and then perhaps see
'Pentax K-30 Weather-Sealed 16 MP CMOS Digital SLR' for $900 USD

and they will move to the Nikons and the Canons! Why wouldn't they? Branding, megapixels, and price will win at the cash register over WR, IQ, Image Noise, Bit Depth or any other factor that really does matter in photography; Nikon and Canon control the market on completely clueless shoppers who just want a 'big' camera and I'm going to wager its rather BIG business.

Go to any park, little league baseball, football, or other various youth event and see how many people have dSLRs and are hand holding them like they are a cellphone. It will blow your mind. Pentax needs in on this market almost as much as they need pro and semi pro shooters.. Lower the price on the low end. Or provide a lower tier product but not 7.

you assume the K-30 is the entry level, which is almost certainly wrong. it is a mid level model, there is still an entry to come and an enthusiast model as well. As for the models you compared to in many ways the K-30 is better (just less MP) T4i and D5200 when they are released will be the competitors, the T3i and D5100 are now at end of life pricing not a true comparison
D3200 aside from 24mp is less than impressive

05-28-2012, 06:29 AM   #485
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I read that as "Pentax should make less impressive cameras; cheap junk with more MP is OK. Then, sell through marketing" But I don't think this was the intention.
05-28-2012, 06:35 AM   #486
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I read that as "Pentax should make less impressive cameras; cheap junk with more MP is OK. Then, sell through marketing" But I don't think this was the intention.
Maybe

they definitely need an entry model, and i would not be at all surprised if aside from design changes it was essentially a KR, which could easily compete with the higher mp but lesser featured entry models IMO

Ricoh needs to distinguish their product from the competition and better build feature set is a good place to start MP will sell d3200 for sure but mostly it is a less than impressive camera that is crippled in many ways
05-28-2012, 07:05 AM   #487
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
you assume the K-30 is the entry level, which is almost certainly wrong.
For the last 30 years, any camera with a pentaprism vs. a pentamirror was NOT entry-level.

The K-30 has a pentaprism. Look for a lower-end model, essentially a revampedK-r.
05-28-2012, 07:20 AM - 1 Like   #488
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
Ricoh needs to distinguish their product from the competition and better build feature set is a good place to start MP will sell d3200 for sure but mostly it is a less than impressive camera that is crippled in many ways
The more I read (comments on this thread) the more I am in favour of not having any stripped down version lower than the k-30 model in order for Pentax to compete with Canikon. Pentax needs to carve itself as a brand that people simply go to them if they want tough and full feature WR models - getting a cheaper line would not only eat into the potential sale of the k-30 but also diluted their precious resources to focus on the k-5 replacement which should be direct competition with D300s and 7D (or their replacement) - Pentax production facilities may not be able to match Canikon.

Before I bought into the DSLR years ago with my first k100D, I used to think that people holding a Canon or Nikon models must be good photographers, however, that perception is long gone since I found that most simply use them as a BIG P&S camera or status symbol that they have the money to burn.

Another point about putting articulating LCD in high end models... (BTW I am not against it) but here is food for thoughts or may be something we know or don't know:
-is the 60D a hot selling model better than 7D?
-is the Olympus E-5 another hot selling model?
-if it is so useful and convenient then why is it that we cannot find that in new models such as 5D MKIII or D800?

05-28-2012, 07:28 AM   #489
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
For the last 30 years, any camera with a pentaprism vs. a pentamirror was NOT entry-level.

The K-30 has a pentaprism. Look for a lower-end model, essentially a revampedK-r.
I agree, but until they launch the entry this is he entry. Semantics of course. there is no reason they could not include Pentaprism in an entry level, but the expense would not be worth it because the entry buyer would have no idea why they want it (though if the pick up a pentaprism and look through it then look through the competition VF it will be very apparent - that will be one of the K30 strengths at B&M retail)
05-28-2012, 07:44 AM   #490
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QuoteOriginally posted by Medium FormatPro Quote
On the first portion of the statement first... Did Ricoh really recently state that, (they) confirmed plan is to regain ten percent market share?? If so, about how recently - ballpark - and was it verbally or in writting??
Actually, I over-reached on that. Looking back I suppose I've heard that here in general discussions since I can't find a link to any interview from December, CES or CP+ (as I thought I would).
05-28-2012, 07:46 AM   #491
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QuoteOriginally posted by aleonx3 Quote
The more I read (comments on this thread) the more I am in favour of not having any stripped down version lower than the k-30 model in order for Pentax to compete with Canikon. Pentax needs to carve itself as a brand that people simply go to them if they want tough and full feature WR models - getting a cheaper line would not only eat into the potential sale of the k-30 but also diluted their precious resources to focus on the k-5 replacement which should be direct competition with D300s and 7D (or their replacement) - Pentax production facilities may not be able to match Canikon.

Before I bought into the DSLR years ago with my first k100D, I used to think that people holding a Canon or Nikon models must be good photographers, however, that perception is long gone since I found that most simply use them as a BIG P&S camera or status symbol that they have the money to burn.

Another point about putting articulating LCD in high end models... (BTW I am not against it) but here is food for thoughts or may be something we know or don't know:
-is the 60D a hot selling model better than 7D?
-is the Olympus E-5 another hot selling model?
-if it is so useful and convenient then why is it that we cannot find that in new models such as 5D MKIII or D800?
E5 (and E3) were not hot sellers, but given the complete lack of support for 4/3 that is no surprise, more to do with it being a virtually dead mount

60D actually is a pretty hot seller (and may well outsell the 7D due to the price difference)
5d3 and d800 are aimed at a higher end pro market where they will use external vf and zacutofinders
Just because they didn't include it BTW doesn't mean it isn't an item people would like.

As for not making a model below the K-30, well we've been down that road with Hoya and look at the wonders that did for market share. Entry level price models achieve a couple things, they draw people to look at the brand in comparison to canon and Nikon, and when presented side by side they will also spur some sales on the step up model that would not have occurred if people hadn't been drawn in by the lower price model. In either case these will be mostly new to the brand clients.
Saying they should limit the number of models is saying they should continue with more of the same. I think Monochrome has it right, Ricoh will be taking the long view and investing in the brand, and that will include a 4 dslr lineup (still less than canikon, but enough to draw peoples attention and get it more presence in retail. a couple of models means you just get relegated to a dusty ignored corner . 4 models (plus the other lines) will get more attention if coupled with marketing support
05-28-2012, 07:51 AM   #492
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
I agree, but until they launch the entry this is he entry. Semantics of course. there is no reason they could not include Pentaprism in an entry level, but the expense would not be worth it because the entry buyer would have no idea why they want it (though if the pick up a pentaprism and look through it then look through the competition VF it will be very apparent - that will be one of the K30 strengths at B&M retail)
The K-r is still in stock, so it is the entry model. That's how Pentax does it; they let the last model run down inventory (K-x comes out, but K-2000 is still for sale).

An entry model is defined by price. The K-30 is far too expensive to be any B&M retailer's entry level model.
05-28-2012, 07:55 AM   #493
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I'm agreeing with a lot that you have written but why hold a grunge against Pentax because of an inept UPP implementation only? If you were unhappy with the prices, I
could understand, but they would have been unattractive with a better implementation of UPP as well (unless it involved lowering MSRP).
So... I was making an argument against Pentax USA's competence on the basis of implementation of UPP. I want Pentax to have long term success and I realize that eventually involves rising prices (albeit not 88% in a day).

When I'm not making arguments against Pentax USA's competence - when I'm talking about my purchasing decisions - my argument becomes a bit different. I make my purchasing decisions based upon how a company treats our 'relationship' (i.e. do they treat me like I'm an idiot), price, etc. So *my* decision (not what I've been arguing here) is based on how much the prices have risen for Pentax. Is the next Pentax body going to be ridicu-priced or will it be a good value? Will my lenses be worth more than I paid for them? What's the total cost of starting a switch to Nikon? What's the viability of Pentax in the future with current management?

That last question is my (least) favorite. The Q, the K-01, UPP, the Pentax website, Ned's blog... is this a viable path for Pentax? Their products could be the foundation the basis for a lot of success, and they may have resources with Ricoh that they haven't had in decades... so it's not like I'm completely pessimistic. Still, it comes down to execution, and it's been nothing but CF lately.

(I'm not knocking the two cameras in terms of technical capability but I wonder if they were a good use of resources from a small company.)
05-28-2012, 07:56 AM   #494
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
5d3 and d800 are aimed at a higher end pro market where they will use external vf and zacutofinders
FF model size requires a tripod on a great many shots. Any FL longer than 70mm (and really 50mm) need substantial stabilization. Once you're on a tripod, the need for articulating screens is reduced. Also, these pro cameras really don't want anything sticking out. It's another thing to break. They are very handy, however.

Also, many FF lenses are no IS/VR...to cut down weight and increase focussing speed.
05-28-2012, 07:58 AM   #495
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Actually, I over-reached on that. Looking back I suppose I've heard that here in general discussions since I can't find a link to any interview from December, CES or CP+ (as I thought I would).
I vaguely remember statements saying the goal was to reach a strong 3rd (which would imply at least 10%) and share being taken form canon and nikon

can't remember where but it is a logical goal in any case

Definitely in January they did hint strongly at a 4 dslr lineup (we only have kr and k5 nothing between or above and a full dslr line is needed.....)
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