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06-13-2012, 07:38 AM   #151
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Spanking over. Back to bed for you.
Talk about being childish...

06-13-2012, 07:47 AM   #152
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Is anyone else worried this is just B&H and Amazon deciding they are not going to carry Pentax anymore?
06-13-2012, 07:50 AM   #153
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I'm not.
06-13-2012, 07:59 AM   #154
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QuoteOriginally posted by miltona580 Quote
Is anyone else worried this is just B&H and Amazon deciding they are not going to carry Pentax anymore?
It can't be under the new pricing model and US law, they can't just drop the prices without permission.

06-13-2012, 08:50 AM   #155
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
You're very, very confused...You keep insisting that somehow Ned lying is distinguishable from Pentax lying.
I don't think anyone is saying that. It doesn't even matter if they are "distinguishable" or not. Unless you are arguing that Ned is *literally* a dumb terminal -- a computer that can't actually understand words, then all this corporate stuff is irrelevant. People are saying in a plain and simple way that if this statement is untrue and it passed Ned's lips (or keyboard, as the case may be), then Ned is lying. And of course he is. That's what a lie is. Doesn't matter how it got into his head, doesn't matter if he is passing it along as part of the corporate chain, it doesn't matter if there is literally a gun to his head. If Ned understands words, and he knows what the truth is, and this isn't it, then it is a lie. No law can change that, no historical precedent, and no amount of rudeness, condescension, and brow-beating on your part can change the fact that "speaking an untruth = lying", period.

Who is ultimately responsible for that lie? Ned the individual? Ned/Pentax/Ricoh as indistinguishable entity? IT DOES NOT MATTER AND COMPLETELY MISSES THE POINT. Well, what is the point then? That the statement is not true. That's it.

Can we stop this silly semantic argument now? We are, after all, talking about a statement where we don't even know whether it is true or false, and now we are on this pointless abstract tangent. Stop it.
06-13-2012, 08:51 AM   #156
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'm not.
You aren't a U.S.A. buyer either.
06-13-2012, 09:06 AM   #157
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Good Lord, what drivel!

The extremis of war and the actions of corporate officers selling a product are two completely different motivations and legal responsibilities. Cleverly stopping oooooh so short of Godwin's Law is the same as putting an elephant in a room and calling it a parakeet.

To invoke one while desperately trying to salvage an unwinnable position in the discussion is an ad hominem reference and silly hyperbole. And now trying to reference international law in a criminal context to something that is a civil commercial marketing matter just continues the ignorance.

The whole "following orders" in a criminal, wartime context as compared to Pentax pricing policy is childish analogy.

Spanking over. Back to bed for you.
Yes sir!
06-13-2012, 09:10 AM   #158
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QuoteQuote:
...
Can we stop this silly semantic argument now? We are, after all, talking about a statement where we don't even know whether it is true or false, and now we are on this pointless abstract tangent. Stop it.
Obviously I agree, but let's be yet more simple and more specific so hopefully we can ALL agree:

IF what Ned wrote is wrong and he knew it, then Ned lied AND Pentax lied.

Easy, & fine with me.


So, back to the real discussion - did Pentax lie, or not? More to the point - how responsible was the Ricoh ownership in Pentax going to UPP? For what ever reason, Ned made a statement to remove any notion that Ricoh ownership was responsible. Why? Why would he/Pentax lie, if it wasn't true? What would be the point?

I read something about facts up above (facts - not evidence or conjecture)...so what are they?


Last edited by jmg257; 06-13-2012 at 09:22 AM.
06-13-2012, 09:15 AM   #159
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
You aren't a U.S.A. buyer either.
I did buy from B&H, once - does that count?

vonBaloney, we should stop speaking about a "lie", since this is just nonsense.
Ned did not lied. Ricoh didn't somehow forced Ned to lie. Calling names/insulting is rude.

By the way, the Ricoh == puppeteer theory adepts still have to explain how overseas micromanagement would work
06-13-2012, 09:18 AM   #160
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11 pages of b*itching about a price drop. man you guys slay me. yep the upp implementation sucked, and the explanations were bafflegab, but hell you got lower pricing back (probably really where it was intended to be eventually)and in fact you now have lower pricing than I do in canada on most models
time to unsubscribe
06-13-2012, 09:24 AM   #161
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
...
vonBaloney, we should stop speaking about a "lie", since this is just nonsense.
Ned did not lied. Ricoh didn't somehow forced Ned to lie. Calling names/insulting is rude.

By the way, the Ricoh == puppeteer theory adepts still have to explain how overseas micromanagement would work
How do you know? Are you sure Ricoh was NOT responsible for the move to UPP?
06-13-2012, 09:24 AM   #162
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
probably really where it was intended to be eventually
Yeah.

jmg257: are you sure they were?
Just explain how overseas micromanagement would work, please; we'll continue after that.
06-13-2012, 09:26 AM   #163
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
11 pages of b*itching about a price drop. man you guys slay me. yep the upp implementation sucked, and the explanations were bafflegab, but hell you got lower pricing back (probably really where it was intended to be eventually)and in fact you now have lower pricing than I do in canada on most models
time to unsubscribe
Actually, most of the posts aren't about price drops at all!
06-13-2012, 09:30 AM   #164
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Yeah.

jmg257: are you sure they were?

Not at all. NEVER said they were. In fact - I never said anything definitive one way or the other about Ricoh's responsibility..because I DO NOT KNOW. (which is why I put a lot of "IF"s in my posts)

So what do YOU know? You seem quite sure...they weren't - and THAT is the point of most of this conversation (I think).


QuoteQuote:
Just explain how overseas micromanagement would work, please; we'll continue after that.
No thanks...wouldn't even pretend to know (or care).

Last edited by jmg257; 06-13-2012 at 09:38 AM.
06-13-2012, 09:41 AM   #165
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Just explain how overseas micromanagement would work, please; we'll continue after that.
Phone? Email? Videoconferencing? Actual travel?

This is 2012 -- distance doesn't matter -- they can have a 24/7 video link with the home office if they want, with all documents instantly available to anyone that needs to see them. Why would "overseas" be any kind of sticking point in this day and age?
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