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06-09-2012, 02:52 AM   #16
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I mentioned this in a posting on the slr lens forum page, but I don't understand why DA 21 mm is now the most expensive DA limited lens at B&H, more than DA 70 and DA 15 which I bet many here believe are more desirable and optically superior. *Hope this lens price goes down another $50!

06-09-2012, 03:20 AM   #17
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well this means I could actually hope to buy a used 1000 $ DA* 60-250 one day
06-09-2012, 04:31 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chaos_Realm Quote
I don't think it is quite like that.
This forum is by far not the worst offender, but IMO it's like that - e.g. Pentax being blamed for second hand price speculations.

FFS, a little over one month with the high prices - was it that unbearable?
One can question why Pentax didn't adjust first the pricing, but if there was a reason we don't know it. But IMHO price adjustments were planned from the beginning.
06-09-2012, 06:42 AM   #19
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ricoh have a plan... (as monochrome keeps saying)

this was all it being implemented. Lets just sit back, relax and enjoy summer with our current equipment. perhaps get outside and take some photos. september will be here in no time, and pentax will be stronger than ever

06-09-2012, 06:45 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
...
Imagine a poor sod that bought the 50-135/2.8 for $1599.95 only to discover a few weeks later that it can now be had for $999.95. ...
What'd you call me? :-)

Yeah, sadly my DA*16-50 lens jammed the day before an out of town shoot. No choice but to buy one new. (needed a backup lens anyway). But what horror to find I had to pay $1500 for the thing!!! And it was soon in repair for the same issue my old lens had. Really not happy having been forced into being their pricing guinea pig.
06-09-2012, 07:10 AM - 1 Like   #21
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This is pure speculation, but here's a thought: in April Ricoh decided that dealers in all countries should offer Pentax lenses for more or less the same prices, hence the unilateral policy in the US and simultaneous reversion to MSRP prices. If what people are saying is true- that this price drop isn't just limited to the US- then it would make sense that Ricoh had this in mind all along and wanted to test the waters before ultimately deciding to lower prices across the board (which will undoubtedly bring in more worldwide sales than before).

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06-09-2012, 07:19 AM - 1 Like   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by parsons Quote
ricoh have a plan... (as monochrome keeps saying)

this was all it being implemented. Lets just sit back, relax and enjoy summer with our current equipment. perhaps get outside and take some photos. september will be here in no time, and pentax will be stronger than ever
The rest of my sig line goes " . . . and you will be happy."

Adam may well be correct about Ricoh implementing another step in the global rebranding strategy. I have written that UPP was one step in a multi-step plan. I've also said Pentax USA is being watched as they implement Ricoh's plan - and that eventual success in the USA is entirely dependent on Ned's and John's implementation.

From the outside looking in it appears P-USA outsourced to contract players virtually all functions of the Division, so smooth, well thought out implementation tactics that contribute to an eventual brand identity must be extremely challenging. When P-USA moved from Golden to Denver last August the Denver Post ran an article crowing about the new member of the business community and the 50 employees that came to Denver. 50 people? Including support staff? For all of Pentax Ricoh Imaging USA? IMHO it will be a challenge to implement all these changes smoothly, efficiently and timely with 50 people.

First, they are possibly limited by the services contracted for, which may not be up to a new standard.

Second, P-USA is possibly not the only "client" covered by the contractor, so that when they need immediate, aggressive and full-time attention it may not be available.

Third, don't forget the condition of the world economy and currency exchange rates, both of which have been quite volatile since March. It is entirely possible we're seeing the effect of the global slow down from 4% growth to 2% growth as China slows to 6.5%, India to 2%, US to 1.8% and Europe to outright recession.

The best plans don't survive first contact with the enemy.

Last edited by monochrome; 06-09-2012 at 09:23 AM.
06-09-2012, 07:54 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chaos_Realm Quote
I don't think it is quite like that.

I think what gets people is that they implemented a pricing strategy that put huge increases on both new and used lenses for a couple of months. People were selling used lenses for (in some cases) more than what they originally purchased them for. And unfortunately for those that bought second hand during this period, they paid equivalent prices of new in the months before and the months after. I wasn't personally affected by this but I can see how people would be annoyed.

Personally I think this current pricing is generally pretty good for what your getting (with a couple of exceptions). The way they achieved it though, was not the most user friendly.
I totally agree with Kunzite. The reaction of some Pentaxians is just ridiculous IMHO (I don't mean you). No one forced anybody to buy anything at clearly inflated prices. Those who did, did it against good judgement IMHO or they were fine with paying that price, which does mean that the price was justified for them. Prices do fluctuate all the time depending on many factors including availability and demand. Naturally as long as the item remains in production you do not want to buy stuff when the prices rise if you want to save some money. It ONLY took 2 month for the prices to fall back almost to the original level.

Those who may be annoyed should rather be upset with their own bad decision making rather than with anything else. The situation was as clear as it can be and making the right decisions should not have been too hard especially considering many people have suggested ways how to act if you want to save the money. I know I did: here for instance.

Let me just remind how the situation was unfolding:
- prices on lenses drop around November 2011 (or even earlier?)
- March 2012 we get a heads-up from this forum and other sources the prices will be raised (exact date was given).

If someone wanted to score a good deal they had 4-5 months to do so and even got an early warning before the prices went up. Now how many people really were not lured by the low prices during that 5-month long window and felt the urge to pay inflated prices in this small 2-month window? I don't know, though it really does look to me as bad decision making if you did opt for paying those higher prices in the last 2 months.


Last edited by vanyagor; 06-09-2012 at 08:03 AM.
06-09-2012, 08:25 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
This is pure speculation, but here's a thought: in April Ricoh decided that dealers in all countries should offer Pentax lenses for more or less the same prices, hence the unilateral policy in the US and simultaneous reversion to MSRP prices. If what people are saying is true- that this price drop isn't just limited to the US- then it would make sense that Ricoh had this in mind all along and wanted to test the waters before ultimately deciding to lower prices across the board (which will undoubtedly bring in more worldwide sales than before).
As much as I'd like to give Ricoh/Pentax the benefit of the doubt, this is giving them too much credit.

They botched their UPP. This was not testing of the waters.

All they had to do was talk to Adorama and B&H to determine price ratios for each product available to the NA market and baseline expectations vs. sales history. As a result of this mess, they saw orders plummet to nothing and the brand diminished amongst its core.

Two days of spreadsheet work and a couple of emails could have prevented this management fiasco. Now marketing has to correct bean counter the damage done, plain and simple.
06-09-2012, 09:22 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I think such price games are fundamentally wrong.
I don't agree.

This is how free markets work.

Price is the mechanism by which supply and demand are kept in balance.

Ricoh is the new owner of Pentax. They wanted to know what the true market value of their lens line-up was, so they implemented a pricing policy that prohibited online retailers from discounting MSRP. Clearly, this resulted in a significant drop in sales. Had there been little or no sales decreases, the prices would have remained in place or even experienced another hike. But a fall in demand dictated a fall in prices.

Not a game at all. A real world example of how the real world works. The consumer rules the marketplace. Provide the market what the market wants at a price the market is willing to pay or suffer the consequences.

It's simple, really.

And it's the way it should be.
06-09-2012, 09:25 AM   #26
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I wonder what (if any) effect this has on the Target distribution (if it ever really existed) and/or whether Target pulled out so this is Plan B?
06-09-2012, 11:16 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by MPrince Quote
I don't agree.

This is how free markets work.

Price is the mechanism by which supply and demand are kept in balance.

Ricoh is the new owner of Pentax. They wanted to know what the true market value of their lens line-up was, so they implemented a pricing policy that prohibited online retailers from discounting MSRP. Clearly, this resulted in a significant drop in sales. Had there been little or no sales decreases, the prices would have remained in place or even experienced another hike. But a fall in demand dictated a fall in prices.

Not a game at all. A real world example of how the real world works. The consumer rules the marketplace. Provide the market what the market wants at a price the market is willing to pay or suffer the consequences.

It's simple, really.

And it's the way it should be.
That's a little optimistic, imho. I was reading an article the other day which pointed out that the world's truly successful products - Coca Cola, Ford Model T, iTunes, Heinz Beans, Big Macs, etc - all share the same two attributes: simplicity and consistency. The customer finds it easy to understand what the product is and how it works and easy also to figure out whether it offers good value. That's simplicity. Consistency means the product is the same everywhere, it's widely available and easily repaired/serviced and that the company behind it follows a steady path, not suddenly changing strategy, pricing or what have you. Thus when in time you need to trade in your car or buy another Big Mac, you can rest assured you will be getting a known quantity at, very probably, a predictable price. Clearly there are the occasional shocks like the yen/dollar changes after the crisis of 2008 but these tend to be industry-wide. Individually, the really successful players try to offer their customers a smooth and reliable ride even when, like Apple and iTunes, they are moving in on an industry in a highly disruptive way.

Now compare this with some of the carry-on in the consumer electronics industry (it would be unfair to single out Pentax). The story is that sudden changes and no clear road ahead your customers can see are rarely good for business. Customers are easily frightened (both retail customers and end-users I would guess). Anyway, I expect this story is only halfway through and in time we'll see a clearer picture.
06-09-2012, 11:51 AM - 1 Like   #28
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Nice example of the Model T when one considers that whenever any digital SLR model gets over one year old there are those that clamour for its replacement. And Henry Ford kept to the only black Model T so long that Chev overtook him in sales. Only Saturn and Saabs sold in Saturn dealerships as far as I know had consistent pricing as in the sticker price was what you paid no matter where you bought it.

I am no marketing genius or CEO however I do know that any product especially a used one is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it at that particular time. I am sure that the extra some one paid for a used lens during that short period of time is minor compared to what anyone paid for a home compared to today (other than Cold Lake, Fort Mac or perhaps Vancouver). In looking at B&H catalogue the other day I was surprised on just how much more some of Canon's lenses are compared to Pentax . Yes there are some that are cheaper but not all of the L lenses compared to the LTD are bargains, many are way more.

I see the price drop on some of the lenses as good news. The two lenses I might be considering, one went down and the other up. When the time comes to buy I will look for a good deal on a used one anyway.

i also think that comparing a product like electronics to snacks or fast food is not a good one as being the same everywhere for ever is a positive for Coke but a negative for a camera, computer or cell phone. Do you want to still buy a K10D or are you looking forward to a K3? I know the point was price but compare the mark up on a burger or coke to a lens and I think you will find the company has much more opportunity to stay constant with the fast food items. If a Big Mac tastes and cost the same everywhere that would be news to me and I have no desire to test that out either
06-09-2012, 11:53 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I wonder what (if any) effect this has on the Target distribution (if it ever really existed) and/or whether Target pulled out so this is Plan B?
I don't think that Target was ever in line to offer the full range of Pentax products, or even the higher end stuff for that matter. At least not so in the longer run. Right now all I see are dwindling stocks of Q's, Kr's, and Q lenses. I would imagine that Target bought low for what was a soon to be discontinued Kr, and the poorly selling Q. Classic discount retailer strategy IMHO. Sure PRICL expanded its retail channels by moving into Target. Perhaps a bit of desperation for clearing products though.
06-09-2012, 12:00 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
...I know the point was price but compare the mark up on a burger or coke to a lens and I think you will find the company has much more opportunity to stay constant with the fast food items...
Yeah, comparing food to technology is pretty rough. The expectations for technology to evolve are different than the expectations for food to evolve. Just look at that photos that Rupert posts of his lunches.
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