New battery charger D-BC90P and new battery D-LI90P - why?

mtansley · 06-21-2012, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by RonHendriks1966

You think that if I put that battery in my very used K-5 Silver Limited Edition, that I can exchange that set for a brand new K-1 Full Frame?

If you put that battery and camera together and ebay it, you'll only be doing what many others try to do and that some do successfully.

Aegon · 06-21-2012, 02:42 PM

Pentax K-3 Announced - Pentax Camera News & Rumors - PentaxForums.com

Pentax digital full frame cameras only come once per year. (the link is a joke, I hope nobody else gets as excited as I got back in April).

glanglois · 06-21-2012, 03:07 PM

It's really a matter of cat versus bug. A kawaii thing, I suspect - the cat is smiling.

For those still confused (that would include me on most subjects), please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawaii

LFLee · 06-21-2012, 03:56 PM

I have a LX3 and recently my sister bought a LX5, the battery, although same size, also change from 3 pins to 4 pins (or the other way round).
I personally think because Panasonic wants to cash in on batteries as well.

hjb981 · 06-25-2012, 07:53 AM

As far as I know, the normal arrangement with three pins have plus, minus and a temperature sensor terminal (the third pin). If a fourth pin is added on a battery with two internal cells in series (7.2 V means that there are two 3.6 V Li-ion cells in series inside), ONE GUESS could be that the fourth pin is for balancing the charge of the two cells, and hence connected to the lead that goes from one cell to the other (so the plus pole for one cell, and the minus poie for the other cell). The two cells will never be exactly the same, and when the battery is charged, one cell will reach full charge before the other one. In this case, the weakest cell (the one that gets full first because it has less capacity) might receive some overcharge. Having access to the lead in between the cells makes it possible to charge them individually, and hence charge each cell individually. All of this makes sense and could be done, but remember that it is only my guess that it is what is actually done in this case.

The camera would not need to access the fourth pin, since it only discharges the battery. If it did access even the fourth pin, the lowest discharge level that could be allowed before the camera shuts itself off could be lower, giving slightly longer operating time, since each cell would be monitored individually. As it is now, with the two cells being monitored as a package, the cut-off potential (voltage) has to be set slightly higher, to make sure that the lowest acceptable potential in the weakest cell (the one that will discharge the fastest) will remain above safe levels. Li-ion cells are sensitive and will usually be destroyed if they are completely discharged, which is why it is very important that the camera shuts itself off before the battery is to deeply discharged.

The advantage of the camera sensing the individual potential will likely be very marginal, and I would believe that having the charger sense it and balance the cells on charge is of greater benefit. If the above guess of mine is correct, the new battery design and thus also new charger is an improvement that should lead to increased longevity of the batteries. I am happy to see that Pentax decided to continue making backward-compatible batteries.

bwDraco · 06-29-2012, 09:28 AM

This is for the same reason the Canon EOS-1D X has an updated battery, LP-E4N. From page 9 of Canon Professional Network - The EOS-1D X explained: inside Canon's flagship DSLR (emphasis added):

Quote:

For enhanced power performance, the LP-E4 battery has been redesigned and is named as the LP-E4N. The inside of the battery now uses a larger number of smaller cells and so the battery capacity has increased from 2300mAh to 2450mAh. Because many people will have a collection of LP-E4 batteries from their previous EOS-1 series cameras, they have been made both forwards and backwards compatible, so an LP-E4N can be used in an EOS-1D Mark IV and an LP-E4 can be used in an EOS-1D X.

There is also a new charger to go along with the new LP-E4N and this is the only charger than should be used with the new battery. If an LP-E4N is charged in an LC-E4 charger you will not fully charge the battery; instead it will only reach around 90% charge so your capacity is reduced and it will not meet new safety regulations. However, an LP-E4 can be charged in the new battery charger with no problems.

WerTicus · 07-03-2012, 01:02 AM

It's to handle the extra power draw from FULL FRAME! :P

bwDraco · 07-04-2012, 07:33 AM

Note that the P variant has a D contact that is also present in the D-LI109 for K-r and K-30, but not in the older D-LI90. See https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/182599-question-ab...-contacts.html.

--DragonLord

Arthur Dent · 07-21-2012, 11:45 AM

My battery with a date code of 201203 has only 3 pins, the same as the D-BC90 charger that came with it but I'm not going to worry about it one bit.

Docrwm · 04-16-2013, 05:13 PM

Reviving an old thread because in looking at B&H they now have another battery listed as "New Item, Available for pre-order". It is listed separately from the original D-LI90 (Part# 39830)

Pentax Part#: 39993 The D-LI90(E) Lithium-Ion Battery from Pentax is a rechargeable power source for select digital cameras. It has an output of 7.2V, a capacity of 1860mAh, and a power consumption rate of 14Wh.
Compatible Cameras K-5
K-5II
K-5IIs
K-7
K-01
645D
Pentax D-LI90(E) Lithium-Ion Battery (7.2V, 1860mAh) 39993 B&H

mattdm · 04-17-2013, 04:58 PM

Weird -- same specs as the old one.

Docrwm · 04-17-2013, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by mattdm

Weird -- same specs as the old one.

All I can think is that it complies with the newish Japanese regulation about having a circuit to monitor Li batteries built into them.

mattdm · 04-18-2013, 07:27 AM

Originally posted by Docrwm

All I can think is that it complies with the newish Japanese regulation about having a circuit to monitor Li batteries built into them.

I asked Pentax support and got this typical non-answer from Randall S:

The D-Li90(E) is a newer version of the original D-Li90 battery and the price
variation is probably a reflection of the increased cost to manufacturer the E
version. The specifications and performance should be the same with either
battery.

Since I specifically noted that the specifications were the same, this is basically the answer I could have gotten from a random person on the street.

Docrwm · 04-18-2013, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by mattdm

I asked Pentax support and got this typical non-answer from Randall S:

The D-Li90(E) is a newer version of the original D-Li90 battery and the price
variation is probably a reflection of the increased cost to manufacturer the E
version. The specifications and performance should be the same with either
battery.

Since I specifically noted that the specifications were the same, this is basically the answer I could have gotten from a random person on the street.

As you said - typical non-answer from Randall S. Why is he still there? Seriously, if one of my staff gave out non-answers regularly like he does they'd be looking for a new job.

DonThomaso · 04-18-2013, 12:11 PM

Got my chep K-01 today, and it surprised me that it had the new D-LI90P battery. I found that the D-LI90P battery wont fit in the old charger called D-BC90. It is no major problem since the camera came with the new D-BC90P charger as well. For future reference the compatibility is:

D-BC90 charger (shipped with my K-5 mk1): will only charge D-LI90
D-BC90P charger (shipped with my K-01): will charge D-LI90 and D-LI90P

There is a small difference in the plastic guides so the new battery won't even fit the old charger.

04-18-2013, 07:27 AM	#28
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Originally posted by Docrwm All I can think is that it complies with the newish Japanese regulation about having a circuit to monitor Li batteries built into them. I asked Pentax support and got this typical non-answer from Randall S: The D-Li90(E) is a newer version of the original D-Li90 battery and the price variation is probably a reflection of the increased cost to manufacturer the E version. The specifications and performance should be the same with either battery. Since I specifically noted that the specifications were the same, this is basically the answer I could have gotten from a random person on the street.

04-18-2013, 07:47 AM	#29
Docrwm Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Somewhere in the Southern US Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,285	Originally posted by mattdm I asked Pentax support and got this typical non-answer from Randall S: The D-Li90(E) is a newer version of the original D-Li90 battery and the price variation is probably a reflection of the increased cost to manufacturer the E version. The specifications and performance should be the same with either battery. Since I specifically noted that the specifications were the same, this is basically the answer I could have gotten from a random person on the street. As you said - typical non-answer from Randall S. Why is he still there? Seriously, if one of my staff gave out non-answers regularly like he does they'd be looking for a new job.

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06-21-2012, 02:12 PM	#16
mtansley Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Ajax, Ontario, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,139	Originally posted by RonHendriks1966 You think that if I put that battery in my very used K-5 Silver Limited Edition, that I can exchange that set for a brand new K-1 Full Frame? If you put that battery and camera together and ebay it, you'll only be doing what many others try to do and that some do successfully.

06-21-2012, 02:42 PM	#17
Aegon Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,416	Pentax K-3 Announced - Pentax Camera News & Rumors - PentaxForums.com Pentax digital full frame cameras only come once per year. (the link is a joke, I hope nobody else gets as excited as I got back in April).

06-21-2012, 03:07 PM	#18
glanglois Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Madison, Wis., USA Posts: 1,506	It's really a matter of cat versus bug. A kawaii thing, I suspect - the cat is smiling. For those still confused (that would include me on most subjects), please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawaii

06-21-2012, 03:56 PM	#19
LFLee Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Southern California Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,292	I have a LX3 and recently my sister bought a LX5, the battery, although same size, also change from 3 pins to 4 pins (or the other way round). I personally think because Panasonic wants to cash in on batteries as well.

06-25-2012, 07:53 AM	#20
hjb981 Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 71	As far as I know, the normal arrangement with three pins have plus, minus and a temperature sensor terminal (the third pin). If a fourth pin is added on a battery with two internal cells in series (7.2 V means that there are two 3.6 V Li-ion cells in series inside), ONE GUESS could be that the fourth pin is for balancing the charge of the two cells, and hence connected to the lead that goes from one cell to the other (so the plus pole for one cell, and the minus poie for the other cell). The two cells will never be exactly the same, and when the battery is charged, one cell will reach full charge before the other one. In this case, the weakest cell (the one that gets full first because it has less capacity) might receive some overcharge. Having access to the lead in between the cells makes it possible to charge them individually, and hence charge each cell individually. All of this makes sense and could be done, but remember that it is only my guess that it is what is actually done in this case. The camera would not need to access the fourth pin, since it only discharges the battery. If it did access even the fourth pin, the lowest discharge level that could be allowed before the camera shuts itself off could be lower, giving slightly longer operating time, since each cell would be monitored individually. As it is now, with the two cells being monitored as a package, the cut-off potential (voltage) has to be set slightly higher, to make sure that the lowest acceptable potential in the weakest cell (the one that will discharge the fastest) will remain above safe levels. Li-ion cells are sensitive and will usually be destroyed if they are completely discharged, which is why it is very important that the camera shuts itself off before the battery is to deeply discharged. The advantage of the camera sensing the individual potential will likely be very marginal, and I would believe that having the charger sense it and balance the cells on charge is of greater benefit. If the above guess of mine is correct, the new battery design and thus also new charger is an improvement that should lead to increased longevity of the batteries. I am happy to see that Pentax decided to continue making backward-compatible batteries.

06-29-2012, 09:28 AM	#21
bwDraco Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: New York Photos: Albums Posts: 1,071	This is for the same reason the Canon EOS-1D X has an updated battery, LP-E4N. From page 9 of Canon Professional Network - The EOS-1D X explained: inside Canon's flagship DSLR (emphasis added): Quote: For enhanced power performance, the LP-E4 battery has been redesigned and is named as the LP-E4N. The inside of the battery now uses a larger number of smaller cells and so the battery capacity has increased from 2300mAh to 2450mAh. Because many people will have a collection of LP-E4 batteries from their previous EOS-1 series cameras, they have been made both forwards and backwards compatible, so an LP-E4N can be used in an EOS-1D Mark IV and an LP-E4 can be used in an EOS-1D X. There is also a new charger to go along with the new LP-E4N and this is the only charger than should be used with the new battery. If an LP-E4N is charged in an LC-E4 charger you will not fully charge the battery; instead it will only reach around 90% charge so your capacity is reduced and it will not meet new safety regulations. However, an LP-E4 can be charged in the new battery charger with no problems.

07-03-2012, 01:02 AM	#22
WerTicus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Perth Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 1,514	It's to handle the extra power draw from FULL FRAME! :P

07-04-2012, 07:33 AM	#23
bwDraco Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: New York Photos: Albums Posts: 1,071	Note that the P variant has a D contact that is also present in the D-LI109 for K-r and K-30, but not in the older D-LI90. See https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/182599-question-ab...-contacts.html. --DragonLord

07-21-2012, 11:45 AM	#24
Arthur Dent New Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 3	My battery with a date code of 201203 has only 3 pins, the same as the D-BC90 charger that came with it but I'm not going to worry about it one bit.

04-16-2013, 05:13 PM	#25
Docrwm Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Somewhere in the Southern US Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,285	Reviving an old thread because in looking at B&H they now have another battery listed as "New Item, Available for pre-order". It is listed separately from the original D-LI90 (Part# 39830) Pentax Part#: 39993 The D-LI90(E) Lithium-Ion Battery from Pentax is a rechargeable power source for select digital cameras. It has an output of 7.2V, a capacity of 1860mAh, and a power consumption rate of 14Wh. Compatible Cameras K-5 K-5II K-5IIs K-7 K-01 645D Pentax D-LI90(E) Lithium-Ion Battery (7.2V, 1860mAh) 39993 B&H

04-17-2013, 04:58 PM	#26
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Weird -- same specs as the old one.

04-17-2013, 05:44 PM	#27
Docrwm Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Somewhere in the Southern US Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,285	Originally posted by mattdm Weird -- same specs as the old one. All I can think is that it complies with the newish Japanese regulation about having a circuit to monitor Li batteries built into them.

04-18-2013, 12:11 PM	#30
DonThomaso Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Skåne, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 482	Got my chep K-01 today, and it surprised me that it had the new D-LI90P battery. I found that the D-LI90P battery wont fit in the old charger called D-BC90. It is no major problem since the camera came with the new D-BC90P charger as well. For future reference the compatibility is: D-BC90 charger (shipped with my K-5 mk1): will only charge D-LI90 D-BC90P charger (shipped with my K-01): will charge D-LI90 and D-LI90P There is a small difference in the plastic guides so the new battery won't even fit the old charger.