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01-24-2008, 12:31 PM   #226
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Chris, thanks for the review (and the time you put into it). I share your excitement! Not a perfect camera, but certainly an evolution over the K10D.

01-24-2008, 12:33 PM   #227
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Uh, Peacekeeper...

"I am amazed at the attitude of some people."

Peacekeeper, huh? I see that the Sudan is now Africa's 3rd largest oil producer...

I AM AMAZED THAT anyone that expresses disappointment in the K20D is immediately attacked and told they are whiners and they should switch systems and that if they had any abilities at all they should be able to use this camera for action shots - after all didn't Joe Blow take a photo of a bicycle rider or a car and it turned out just fine?

What many people, myself included, cannot understand is why Pentax did not include basic upgrades in this camera. Upgrades that have been in use in other other cameras for years. Upgrades that would not have required doubling the price of the camera.

Again -IQ only matters if you make the capture!

The action/wildlife members here have never said- huh, if you studio guys knew how to catch the natural light at just the right moment, you wouldn't need all that fancy lighting. That would be ridiculous - just as ridiculous as saying that NO-ONE needs more than 3 FPS or an autofocus system that actually works.
01-24-2008, 12:34 PM   #228
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Thank you codiac for this presentation of the K20D.

I am not too disappointed, only the 3fps are a bit on the lower side, but as I only seldom wish to have more than 3fps, it is not too much of a problem. If I have to choose between speed and IQ, I chose IQ.

I see this K20D as an updated K10D. A lower compression rate on the JPG and additional profiles to bright/natural with more possibilities for setting edge sharpening should give much improved JPGs. Together with the enhanced DR and the possibility offered to the user to fine tune the AF to the lenses is showing me that Pentax is listening.

The latest shot from Ben at 1600iso show me that Pentax did well in managing the noise level on the new CMOS sensor, and this even before the final firmware.

Other features are less important to me, such as interval timer and live view.

The K20D is definitely a interesting camera to me.
01-24-2008, 12:43 PM   #229
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Anyone know when the US release date is - Any chance of having it by may 1st..

01-24-2008, 12:44 PM   #230
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom Lusk Quote
What many people, myself included, cannot understand is why Pentax did not include basic upgrades in this camera. Upgrades that have been in use in other other cameras for years. Upgrades that would not have required doubling the price of the camera.
Such as.....
Besides fps and focus system since those have been beaten to a pulp already.

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01-24-2008, 12:54 PM   #231
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom M Quote
Anyone know when the US release date is - Any chance of having it by may 1st..
Europe sites say March, US sites say April. If they are on time with either of those you are in luck.
01-24-2008, 12:54 PM   #232
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Dont you see that most of the people here wont listen/understand your point. Many cant tolerate any critic-independent thinking. You can only chant the Pentax mantra... "Benjikan is my saviour I cannot ask for more... on green prairies...." I wonder where is the camel and the needle I would like too picture the moment where the camel go through the eye of the needle but... wait a minute, I dont have long lenses yet and... I hope they dont move too much, otherwise somebody would have to use another camera to catch the moment.

Disclaimer, I am not saying that people shouldnt be happy with the new release. I only think that it would be nice if the people payed the same respect to those that doesnt think that this is the best thing since the Coca-cola.

QuoteOriginally posted by Tom Lusk Quote
"I am amazed at the attitude of some people."

Peacekeeper, huh? I see that the Sudan is now Africa's 3rd largest oil producer...

I AM AMAZED THAT anyone that expresses disappointment in the K20D is immediately attacked and told they are whiners and they should switch systems and that if they had any abilities at all they should be able to use this camera for action shots - after all didn't Joe Blow take a photo of a bicycle rider or a car and it turned out just fine?

What many people, myself included, cannot understand is why Pentax did not include basic upgrades in this camera. Upgrades that have been in use in other other cameras for years. Upgrades that would not have required doubling the price of the camera.

Again -IQ only matters if you make the capture!

The action/wildlife members here have never said- huh, if you studio guys knew how to catch the natural light at just the right moment, you wouldn't need all that fancy lighting. That would be ridiculous - just as ridiculous as saying that NO-ONE needs more than 3 FPS or an autofocus system that actually works.
01-24-2008, 01:09 PM   #233
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom Lusk Quote
"I am amazed at the attitude of some people."

Peacekeeper, huh? I see that the Sudan is now Africa's 3rd largest oil producer...

I AM AMAZED THAT anyone that expresses disappointment in the K20D is immediately attacked and told they are whiners and they should switch systems and that if they had any abilities at all they should be able to use this camera for action shots - after all didn't Joe Blow take a photo of a bicycle rider or a car and it turned out just fine?

What many people, myself included, cannot understand is why Pentax did not include basic upgrades in this camera. Upgrades that have been in use in other other cameras for years. Upgrades that would not have required doubling the price of the camera.

Again -IQ only matters if you make the capture!

The action/wildlife members here have never said- huh, if you studio guys knew how to catch the natural light at just the right moment, you wouldn't need all that fancy lighting. That would be ridiculous - just as ridiculous as saying that NO-ONE needs more than 3 FPS or an autofocus system that actually works.
I couldn't agree more, Tom.

01-24-2008, 01:33 PM   #234
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom Lusk Quote
What many people, myself included, cannot understand is why Pentax did not include basic upgrades in this camera. Upgrades that have been in use in other other cameras for years. Upgrades that would not have required doubling the price of the camera.

If you start with the assumption that there actually is a reason they did not overhaul AF/fps, you could probably figure out yourself what that reason is, and maybe find some level of acceptance. In fact, the reason has actually been pointed out again and again just in this thread, including the very first post.

They couldn't do both major overhauls within the same timeframe/budget. They chose one - IQ/Image quality - the better of the two choices, in my opinion.

They probably could have done both, given unlimited resources - but there's this unforgiving entity out there called the marketplace, and it's governed by all these capitalistic ideas like profit margins, cost-benefit, ROI, opportunity cost, and debt management. As far as I know, no company has ever been able to bypass these limitations and stay in business.




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Last edited by jsherman999; 01-24-2008 at 01:38 PM.
01-24-2008, 02:06 PM   #235
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QuoteOriginally posted by Priyantha Bleeker Quote
Well the K20D is just the K10D what it should have been on the introduction but the sensor wasn't ready.
Yes the Live View is nice...but that's the only 'new' feature there is in the 'K10D' body which wasn't on the planning in the first place.

But Pentax did introduce the K10D with a inferior Sony 10MP CCD and with some crippled functions(no AF adjustments in a menu, no X-contact), they had to introduce the camera faster as planned I think because they needed the sales to be sure the survived(after all they did half...

I think Pentax should name the K20D als 'K10D Super' just like what they did with the good old 'ME' and 'ME Super' the 'ME Super' was a real improvement over the normal 'ME' and not just a firmware fix and a couple of electronic sensors in the mount and again a firmware fix with the 'K100D' to 'K100D Super'.
They should make then a good statement I think, because than they can say 'Look we have upgraded our K10D but it is a evolution of the old model, we are working on a revolutionary new model for the future'
I own the K10, and the K20 seems a completely different camera. CCD vs. CMOS. Iso 1600 vs. 6400. Better anti-dust, better Shake reduction, the ability to shoot 20 fps (and yes, I could find a use for it), AF adjustments possible (usually kept for more advanced cameras), extra DR mode, IR filter mode (together with many other filter modes), Pixel Mapping On Board to remap dead/hot pixels so you don’t need to send it in for service, Trap-Focus, etc.
I find the K20 a very worthy follower to the K10, which was a great camera.
I have a feeling you have not really put the K10 through the paces, and tried it over a longer period of time; there is a reason it swept the market of awards.

If the IQ of the K20 is up for it, there could be some consideration for potential D300/D200 and particularly Eos 40D customers. Currently the Canon forum was chocked, when Phil stated that the RAW output from K10, was better than Eos 40D.
Talking about warming up old soup that is the Eos 10D->20D->30D->40D; at least so the reviews said.

And BTW, the D200 was not fully sealed, (look at the review from Thom Hogan). The Eos 30D that you mentioned, was not sealed at all. Eos 40D has a bit sealing, but not fully gasketed. And only recent Nikon lenses announced with the D300 and D3 are sealed.
I don’t really care much for magnesium body, metal chassis and impact absorbing polyamide plastic handles accidents better.

Now I see that you were also the one thinking the DA* 50-135 lens was bad, eventhough you had no personal experience with it. Makes me think that there was little need to waste time, running through these recent arguments of yours.
It is funny that you should find the Sony 10MP CCD sensor of the K10 inferior, as this was very well received in the D200. Or maybe it was a joke of finding 10 faults in your posting, and who could do it quickest. Take the Eos 40D out in foul weather, and lets see the AF and FPS performance when the inside of the camera is soaked.


To Chris, thanks a lot for talking the time to write the essay. And for showing Iso 1600 samples, I can hardly believe the IQ with such high Iso. That is insane, I can understand that you were impressed. The K10 doesn’t come close to this sort of IQ at the same Iso.


If people think Sync-speed is slow at 1/180th, why don’t they use High-speed synch option ?

With the Sigma 300/2.8, 500/4.5, and 800 mm out, I don’t really see the problem in lens line-up anymore. Tamron 17-50/2.8 is also on the way, as is 80-200/2.8. A Ring flash can easily be made by oneself, with good results, (seen many Pro's playing with this).
I also like that with the K20, it is possible to select in the menu the amount of NR that you wanna apply to your photos. And it is impressive that it has the highest amount of resolution in its class.
As it is possible in the preset scene modes, to customize yourself; this would be a fine feature in JPEG shooting.
HDR filter sounds interesting too, and it is good that they made the RAW bottom customisable. They've listened to the feedback from the K10.
Interval shooting is a great feature too, where you can set the start time, and number of shots to take, and how long between each. Saves some sleeping time, where you don't have to get up .

The K20 was a replacement for the K10, why people suddenly believe that it would kill the D300 and leave the 1D Mark III in the trail, is incomprehensible to me.


With new batteries, the K20 might be able to give more juice to the AF system, hence why Ben found the focus fast with the new limited macro lens.

Pentax has once again made a camera for enthusiastic photographers, and not gadget freaks. The AF system of the K10 should live up to what the Z-1P was capable of, Mattias Klum has taken award winning shots for National Geographic with that one, deep in the Borneo jungle under the canopy. And in the early days of digital, wildlife shooters took amazing shots with cameras that only had 3 fps, and smaller buffer than the K10. So yeah, you may need higher skill with Pentax in some situations, but it is perfectly capable of grabbing the great shots.

Pentax really did good in Europe as well in 2007. In selected big countries (Germany, France, UK), they grabbed 8 % of the market. With Sony at 6 %, Olympus at 5 %, and Samsung at 1 %. They’ve made well aware of themselves, and I think the K20 is again gonna be a photographers camera, and not spec junkies, (though I sometimes can be this myself). I’ve been using Pentax SLR’s for around 10 years, sometimes I had to work harder to get the shot; but with AF assist light and a flash, I’ve always come away with images I liked.

Last edited by Jonson PL; 01-25-2008 at 12:29 AM.
01-24-2008, 02:15 PM   #236
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What if...what if this camera had 5fps and the quickest AF in town? I would probably never need to buy another camera (and many others as well)! What reason would there be to upgrade in a year if this one was perfect? Just a theory...
01-24-2008, 02:21 PM   #237
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QuoteOriginally posted by Hack Quote
What if...what if this camera had 5fps and the quickest AF in town? I would probably never need to buy another camera (and many others as well)! What reason would there be to upgrade in a year if this one was perfect? Just a theory...

And valid. If you've ever spent time working at a software company, you'd call this a "business model."




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01-24-2008, 02:27 PM   #238
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Thanks Chris for taking the time to let us know what you've learned. Much of the press info and releases from Pentax are not as complete or explain as much as what you've done, so that is greatly appreciated.

I am fairly new to photography and very new to SLR's so I've been following the rumors of what people were wanting to see in the new Pentax models to learn about what things more experienced users value/ desire in a DSLR. But since I am still learning, I really did not have a lot of additional needs in a camera...I'm still quite happy with my K110d after all. All I know is that when taking pics w/ my uncle at family events, he has to use his flash on his D70 and his pics tend to have less depth to the pictures where I have been using fast primes and been capturing images w/ more context imo.

It sounds like the K20 has some significant improvements over the k10, w/ a significantly higher price to go with it. If using higher ISOs w/ less noise turns out to be true, that will be great for my family pics. And if dynamic range has been improved too, that'll be very nice too. Personally, I thought the K10 was a great camera and an especially good value at today's prices. If the K20 is better, that's great. But with all the criticism lately of the lack of progress in certain areas, I'm wondering if I really want to get the k10 now... it sounds like it's hard to get a decent shot off with it since the focusing is so bad. Oh well, I'll just have to make do with what I have now...
01-24-2008, 02:40 PM   #239
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote

Have you seen the bicycle race pics on the brochure? If it was done in AF-C and from a stable point (ie not from a motorbike running at the same speed), it looks pretty good

Brochure pics were done with a Canon. You know, as Ben says, they hire an agency, the agency has meetings, they choose a photographer, he is offered tons of money, he uses whatever he uses, as the Ad Agency is just expecting results, and they design the brochure after a bunch of other meetings.

They don't just hand some professional photographer a K20D, and tell him to go take pictures because then they could have given Ben some work.
01-24-2008, 02:44 PM   #240
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
I own the K10, and the K20 seems a completely different camera. CCD vs. CMOS. Iso 1600 vs. 6400. Better anti-dust, better Shake reduction, the ability to shoot 20 fps (and yes, I could find a use for it), AF adjustments possible (usually kept for more advanced cameras), extra DR mode, IR filter mode (together with many other filter modes), Pixel Mapping On Board to remap dead/hot pixels so you donít need to send it in for service, Trap-Focus, etc.
I find the K20 a very worthy follower to the K10, which was a great camera.
Well the body itself is basically the same as the K10D
Yes there is now a CMOS sensor and yes the max ISO is now 6400(in extended mode! default is 3200), but the real noise performance is yet unknown so no conclusions about the sensor yet from me
Better anti-dust, that's nothing more as normal because the 'anti-dust' in the K10D was just a joke in my opinion, it hadn't helpt me anytime I have used a K10D.
Better Shake Reduction is nice ! I liked the K10D's Shake Reduction very much so that's a nice improvement
the ability to shoot 20 fps is not very useful for me personal, like 6 or something FPS for the full resolution is in my opinion for my own use a lot more handy.
The extra DR mode is that just for JPG's ? I didn't find that it also was for RAW shooting ? If so, than it is for my personal worthless but it is a great selling point
The IR filter is just a PP action in your favourite PP application.
Pixel remapping is very very nice indeed, they have looked to Olympus
Trap Focus is nice yes if it does what the people here say it is going to do

QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
I have a feeling you have not really put the K10 through the paces, and tried it over a longer period of time; there is a reason it swept the market of awards.
Well I have owned a K10D as one of the first peoples here in The Netherlands in the first part of January 2007, and I dropped my K10D unfortunately in July 2007, where it broke.
For pictures you may click here
After that I just got the money from the insurance and the plan was at that moment to wait for the replacement model of the K10D, and use my old Nikon D70 again.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
Now I see that you were also the one thinking the DA* 50-135 lens was bad, eventhough you had no personal experience with it. Makes me think that there was little need to waste time, running through these recent arguments of yours.
It is funny that you should find the Sony 10MP CCD sensor of the K10 inferior, as this was very well received in the D200. Or maybe it was a joke of finding 10 faults in your posting, and who could do it quickest. Take the D40 out in foul weather, and lets see the AF and FPS performance when the inside of the camera is soaked.
Well bad is a big word, I think I said the word 'bad' because I don't know a right word to say it a bit more relatively. Maybe is the word 'a bit worse than' better ?
What I meant was that a Nikkor 70-200 F2.8 VR or a Canon 70-200 F2.8 IS, is just better Yes the pricepoint of the DA* is lower, but wasn't the '*' marking the marking for the highest quality lenses Pentax can make ? I thought always that the '*' marking was 'Pentax equivalent of 'Canon 'L' marking.
And yes my opinion of the both DA* lenses are not based on my own real life experiences that's true, but I have read reviews, and saw a lot sample photo's and technical graphics.

Well maybe you have forgotten it, but Nikon has been criticized by many many people with their use of the 10MP Sony CCD Sensor. The noise with the D200 is just not good on high ISO's just like the K10D(although the K10D does it a little bit better).
Also there was banding, but Nikon fixed that with a hardware/and software update for all of their already sold D200's and off course with the newly produced D200's, instead of Pentax who just said 'there is such thing of banding'.

You have it in your post a couple of times about a D40...you mean the Canon 40D I think ? Or are you now comparing the K10D and K20D with the Nikon D40(the low-end model of Nikon) :P
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