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01-24-2008, 08:38 PM   #256
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
There were over 100 journalists at the Press conference I attended and the response was very, very positive, especially when they tried it out on a top model from Ford Agency...They had a blast and they saw the results immediately. Oh and by the way, I am quite critical of Pentax, more often behind closed doors than in the public. Yeah...My shit stinks just like everyone else. I don't think I have ever suggested for a moment that people follow my "Mantra" if that is what you wish to call it. Just take the F--ING photos and share them here as many of us do. That is the object of passion for the real artist, the real photographer. None the less, for those who find that the K20D is not up to scratch, perhaps it has more to do with being less in the field taking doing photography than in front of a screen counting pixels.
Hey BenjiKan - Quite some time since I logged in but we follow chatter closely. Arie and I have been following your posts and all the hype and hoopla in between. Jolly good stuff. Arie has ordered his new Pentax K20D today!

Love this last note to all - you know your shit, your work is fabulous and you've earned every pixel. Your enthusiasm is great ... cheers!

01-24-2008, 10:13 PM   #257
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
Well, in that case they probably also took the time to fake the EXIF...


All I know is that the photographer said he was focus tracking the front rider...
01-24-2008, 10:21 PM   #258
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QuoteOriginally posted by GWP Quote

It would appear that now Pentax have gone to great lengths to address this issue of IQ to offer the best on the market (is that not the inference now?). This does not appear to satisfy everyone, just giving credence to the fact that you can't please all the people all the time.
There only seems to be 4 things. Predictive AF, FPS (even a software compromise between 3 & 20), LCD resolution (and size considering Samsung makes LCD's), and 14 bit RAW, not just 12. All to just be on par with the competition.

All the other great stuff is what breaks past the selling power of the Nikon/Canon names, and gets people to buy Pentax.

This might be in store for a K20D Super in a few months, or at least the K30D in 18 months. Maybe I'll have saved enough money by then.
01-24-2008, 10:38 PM   #259
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gio645 Quote
I stand on my statement! I better go to take some pictures
Those pentax users you mention (you included) are criticizing Pentax at every turn. This is not criticism. It is pure whining!
I find the Ignore List works really well. Mine is starting to fill up.

01-24-2008, 11:45 PM   #260
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
[
All I know is that the photographer said he was focus tracking the front rider...
Being facetious heh?

Fun is good... we all tend to take all this too seriously!
01-24-2008, 11:55 PM   #261
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
I think a very basic point is being missed or discounted here by a lot of folks - both Ben, Chris and a couple other more anonymous sources have been raving about the IQ of this powerful new sensor, and people are just treating it like just another checklist item, on par with the filtering, PC-sync, etc - I don't think it's just another bullet point in the specs, I suspect it might be the selling point for this camera.

We'll have to see more images, or more accurately have some reviewers see the images in resolution tests. I have a feeling people who have been disappointed in the AF/FPS numbers might consider it an acceptable tradeoff when/if the actual images blow away the competition, especially low-light/high ISO. Which has been implied.

It's the IQ, stupid.
.
.
.
Although I was originally skeptical, I have come to this same conclusion myself. For the past 1.5 hours, I have been pixel peeping at dozens of 100% views of Nikon D300 photos that I was able to find on the web, and not one of them comes close to any of the casual snapshots that Ben has posted from the K20D. The difference is not subtle, and I predict that many who rushed out to purchase the D300 will be stunned, although few will admit it. The K20D images are so realistic and natural that you feel that you can just reach out and touch the book, the door handle, the bottle cork or whatever the subject happens to be. To some extent, the difference may be due to a superior 35mm lens that Ben used, but some of the D300 photos I saw were taken with top of the line Nikon glass.

Two caveats must be mentioned. Firstly, Ben did not post any images that were above ISO 200, so my comments apply only to the low ISO range. Possibly, the D300 is superior at higher ISOs, but that remains to be seen. Secondly, I did detect horizontal banding in some of the K20D images at 100%. It is subtle and possibly not visible at normal print sizes, but it is there. We can only hope that Pentax will be able to eliminate it in the final production cameras

People who are moaning about the K20D's merely good autofocus and 3 fps continuous shooting need to shake themselves and remember that IQ is ultimately of far greater importance in most circumstances. At least we can feel comfortable that Pentax have nailed IQ and that at some point they will undoubtedly marry it to all the other neat features that one might desire. And if they do it soon enough and produce a line of high quality telephoto lenses and flash attachments, they may actually be able to make significant inroads to the professional market.

Rob

Last edited by robgo2; 01-25-2008 at 01:11 AM. Reason: content
01-25-2008, 12:16 AM   #262
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QuoteOriginally posted by Priyantha Bleeker Quote
Well the body itself is basically the same as the K10D
Yes there is now a CMOS sensor and yes the max ISO is now 6400(in extended mode! default is 3200), but the real noise performance is yet unknown so no conclusions about the sensor yet from me
Better anti-dust, that's nothing more as normal because the 'anti-dust' in the K10D was just a joke in my opinion, it hadn't helpt me anytime I have used a K10D.
Better Shake Reduction is nice ! I liked the K10D's Shake Reduction very much so that's a nice improvement
the ability to shoot 20 fps is not very useful for me personal, like 6 or something FPS for the full resolution is in my opinion for my own use a lot more handy.

The Anti-Dust on the K10 has worked like a charm for me, but them I’m very careful and try to limit the situations where I have to change lenses, to more controlled environments.
A jump from 3 fps in the K10, to 6 fps in K20 would be a big leap. Particularly since the files are way bigger. (And I think IQ is of most importance, one of the reasons we go for SLRs).


I'm in line with what Tom Brown wrote on the other forum. :
"I have no doubt it's coming [more FPS]. Samsung is a global power in the semiconductor industry and I have no doubt the Pentax/Samsung collaboration will bring some world class results in the near future.

If you *need* the very best fps performance, Pentax is not the brand for you. Who in here *needs* it, though? Who in here is going to hear themselves 20 years from now say, "You know... not having industry leading fps performance for 18 months back in 2008 is the reason I was never able to make a career for myself in photography." That's just silly.

Pentax will catch up. Personally, I think they've pulled a bigger rabbit out of the hat with high ISO, IQ, x-sync, and other improvements than they would have with fps improvements. If you were to switch that around and have a 5fps, 10Mp Sony sensor K10D being released right now, you would get a collective yawn."


QuoteOriginally posted by Priyantha Bleeker Quote
The extra DR mode is that just for JPG's ? I didn't find that it also was for RAW shooting ? If so, than it is for my personal worthless but it is a great selling point
The IR filter is just a PP action in your favourite PP application.
Pixel remapping is very very nice indeed, they have looked to Olympus
Trap Focus is nice yes if it does what the people here say it is going to do
As Chris wrote ealier in the thread : "All picture styles work in RAW and Jpeg."


Yes, it is great that we have Oly. Makes all the rest of the gang, fit and healthy. Oly is IMO, one of the most innovative players in the SLR segment. Pentax also comes up with fun solutions, but more old school way; (some might say more photographer oriented than gear head, as I've stated in many areas i do have the gear head tendencies).


QuoteOriginally posted by Priyantha Bleeker Quote
Well I have owned a K10D as one of the first peoples here in The Netherlands in the first part of January 2007, and I dropped my K10D unfortunately in July 2007, where it broke.
For pictures you may click here
After that I just got the money from the insurance and the plan was at that moment to wait for the replacement model of the K10D, and use my old Nikon D70 again.
Sorry to hear, well good that insurance could cover it.


QuoteOriginally posted by Priyantha Bleeker Quote
Well bad is a big word, I think I said the word 'bad' because I don't know a right word to say it a bit more relatively. Maybe is the word 'a bit worse than' better ?
What I meant was that a Nikkor 70-200 F2.8 VR or a Canon 70-200 F2.8 IS, is just better Yes the pricepoint of the DA* is lower, but wasn't the '*' marking the marking for the highest quality lenses Pentax can make ? I thought always that the '*' marking was 'Pentax equivalent of 'Canon 'L' marking.
And yes my opinion of the both DA* lenses are not based on my own real life experiences that's true, but I have read reviews, and saw a lot sample photo's and technical graphics.

Well maybe you have forgotten it, but Nikon has been criticized by many many people with their use of the 10MP Sony CCD Sensor. The noise with the D200 is just not good on high ISO's just like the K10D(although the K10D does it a little bit better).
Also there was banding, but Nikon fixed that with a hardware/and software update for all of their already sold D200's and off course with the newly produced D200's, instead of Pentax who just said 'there is such thing of banding'.

Canon and Nikon also have problems with their glass, and have their fair share that go back. The more extreme design, and in particular with zooms, the more difficult to make.
As the professional reviewer and photographer Lloyd Chambers, who is extremely critical of his gear, has stated : “The assembly of the designed optic (especially a zoom lens) requires extremely high precision, especially with today’s high-resolution digital cameras, and thus more than a few “dogs” appear even in the pro lens lines of Canon and Nikon. I have personally experienced this problem on multiple occasions with both Canon and Nikon. A trip to factory service has always resolved the optical issues.”
(The DA* 16-50/2.8 AL ED [IF] SDM, has 15 elements in 12 groups
The DA* 50-135/2.8 ED [IF] SDM, has 18 elements in 14 groups)


As GordonBGood stated, Banding was entirely fixed with firmware version 1.1. What was left was VPN, which was less of a problem, though still a problem.
Nikon saw a lot of critique BTW, about the way they went in handling the problems.

QuoteOriginally posted by Priyantha Bleeker Quote
You have it in your post a couple of times about a D40...you mean the Canon 40D I think ? Or are you now comparing the K10D and K20D with the Nikon D40(the low-end model of Nikon) :P
Yup, with all the different single letters on cameras and lenses, I mix it up at times. Will not help me, the day Pentax brings out the LX 3ND II Super Plus

I, like you, would like a Pentax D300 level camera, as I’m a big fan of wildlife photography. But there is a reason that Canon & Nikon are industry leaders, Pentax will always be some generations behind them. Being a student, price would be a problem, but if the goods were up for it, I would be willing to lay down the cost.
But I don't know how representative we at forums are, likely we're more inclined to go with gear that most normal users would not buy, or tend to find too expensive.

Last edited by Jonson PL; 01-25-2008 at 12:23 AM.
01-25-2008, 12:38 AM   #263
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
All I know is that the photographer said he was focus tracking the front rider...



Focussing was on front right cyclist...

Not impressive, huh?

01-25-2008, 12:54 AM   #264
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edvinas Quote


Focussing was on front right cyclist...

Not impressive, huh?
As you just wrote, Edvinas, you found this picture indicative of the Pentax focus problems. Like when a person is walking towards you in fast pace.

Since you and Mutley can make such stark comments from this picture, then of cause you guys can tell us, who the photographer was ?

And why this is not just a selected AF sensor point, to capture the team captain.
01-25-2008, 01:06 AM   #265
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
As you just wrote, Edvinas, you found this picture indicative of the Pentax focus problems. Like when a person is walking towards you in fast pace.

Since you and Mutley can make such stark comments from this picture, then of cause you guys can tell us, who the photographer was ?

And why this is not just a selected AF sensor point, to capture the team captain.
Jason,

I have no idea who is photographer. after reading mutley comment I just opened that sample picture in PhotoME. This excellent program is able to display focus points which were used to focus. Even when you use Autoselect Focus Points, it displays which point(s) was used to focus.

Look at thumbnail image. I did not paint that "[ ]" on thumbnail. Photo ME extracted focus point info from EXIF and displayed it. This is the focus point where K20D focussed at. If AF would work correct, front right cyclist would be in focus.
01-25-2008, 01:33 AM   #266
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
Being facetious heh?

Fun is good... we all tend to take all this too seriously!
Actually I was just kidding, but all to sadly Edvinas has shown that the focus point was the front right rider, therefore predicably, or predictively....off.
01-25-2008, 01:35 AM   #267
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edvinas Quote
Look at thumbnail image. I did not paint that "[ ]" on thumbnail. Photo ME extracted focus point info from EXIF and displayed it. This is the focus point where K20D focussed at.
Actually, if you look at the EXIF more carefully, you would realize that the Focus mode was set to Manual! So no AF was used!!!
01-25-2008, 01:36 AM   #268
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
Edvinas has shown that the focus point was the front right rider, therefore predicably, or predictively....off.
The focal point is irrelevant in this case. The Focus mode was set to Manual. No AF was used!

And reading this thread makes you wonder that no one can take good sports photo without 5fps and super duper AF system... :ugh:
Yes, drive mode was set to single frame.
01-25-2008, 01:37 AM   #269
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QuoteOriginally posted by robgo2 Quote
Although I was originally skeptical, I have come to this same conclusion myself. For the past 1.5 hours, I have been pixel peeping at dozens of 100% views of Nikon D300 photos that I was able to find on the web, and not one of them comes close to any of the casual snapshots that Ben has posted from the K20D. The difference is not subtle, and I predict that many who rushed out to purchase the D300 will be stunned, although few will admit it. The K20D images are so realistic and natural that you feel that you can just reach out and touch the book, the door handle, the bottle cork or whatever the subject happens to be. To some extent, the difference may be due to a superior 35mm lens that Ben used, but some of the D300 photos I saw were taken with top of the line Nikon glass.

Two caveats must be mentioned. Firstly, Ben did not post any images that were above ISO 200, so my comments apply only to the low ISO range. Possibly, the D300 is superior at higher ISOs, but that remains to be seen. Secondly, I did detect horizontal banding in some of the K20D images at 100%. It is subtle and possibly not visible at normal print sizes, but it is there. We can only hope that Pentax will be able to eliminate it in the final production cameras

People who are moaning about the K20D's merely good autofocus and 3 fps continuous shooting need to shake themselves and remember that IQ is ultimately of far greater importance in most circumstances. At least we can feel comfortable that Pentax have nailed IQ and that at some point they will undoubtedly marry it to all the other neat features that one might desire. And if they do it soon enough and produce a line of high quality telephoto lenses and flash attachments, they may actually be able to make significant inroads to the professional market.

Rob
Hello Rob;

I posted a few 400 iso and a 1600 iso shot which is the very last image on the "Smugmug" site.
01-25-2008, 01:46 AM   #270
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
The focal point is irrelevant in this case. The Focus mode was set to Manual. No AF was used!
You're right. Manual focus. However shown focus point tells us that K20D thought that this point must be in focus. Pentax DSLRs in manual focus mode indicate which focus point is in focus.

BTW, isn't this shot made with trap focus?
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