FPS rate petition for new K20D

alib99 · 01-23-2008, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by HawaiianOnline

Some have said the 3fps is fine. Heck, 1 or 2 fps is fine if you don't do a lot of action or birding (specifically BIF). All I know is that when I borrowed a 1DMkII, I got a higher keeper rate BECAUSE of the faster AF and FPS. At one time, I was specifically looking for a used one with a couple of long teles to do this kind of photography. Then I heard about the K20D and I hoped that it would have a higher fps. So much for that.

The K20D is not comparable to the af and framerate performance of the 1DMkII. If anything, it's more like the 1DsMKII, a studio, landscape, and single shot beast (if the IQ holds up). I will probably get it just for those purposes, but I will still be hunting for a sport and BIF rig...

Unfortunately you are right.

Andrew Faires · 01-23-2008, 10:32 PM

6mp at 5 or 6 fps would seal the deal....even if AF is exactly the same as with the k10d (which I suspect). Personally, if they can't do that, I've honestly got no use for 20fps at 1.6mp....it's a waste of time & memory imho.

Aside from that, there's a lot of promise to the k20d - especially with a better dampened mirror assembly. That alone isn't enough for me to buy in the next 6 months though.

lol101 · 01-23-2008, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by Duplo

I voted C.

IMHO the framerate has to follow the ability of the AF system to be of use...

Amen to that!

3fps with a good tracking AF is OK in 90% of situations where one would like to use higher fps...

20fps without AF is useless (once you will have done pictures of water drops, milk drops, ink drops and oil drops, you'll get tired of it I think...)

walter · 01-24-2008, 02:45 AM

I suspect some of the intermediate resolutions (like 6 or 8 MP) are hard to do, because the scaling requires too much processing time. 1.6MP works out to combining 3x3 pixel block into a single pixel which should be easy to do quickly. I don't know why they don't do have a 3.6MP @ 8 or 9 fps mode (combining a 2x2 block into a single pixel. I don't think it would be any harder than the 20fps mode and would be more useful for me. RAW mode would be nice too, even if it decreases the max number of frames.

Pentax isn't afraid to add new features in firmware, so I'm hoping we'll see at least one intermediate mode.

mutley · 01-24-2008, 02:53 AM

Originally posted by BrendanPK

Please Pentax can you make a firmware upgrade to alow user controled FPS-burst MP/file adjustment. I dont mind being able to only shoot 12-10mp at 4-5fps or 5-6mp at 6-7fps or even 4-5mp at8fps but at 1.6mp its rather unless to have even at 20fps.

Now, that's a great idea that they'll say is undoable because of "hardware-based", or some usual explanation.

Peter Zack · 01-24-2008, 06:59 AM

I sure hope that it's scaleable or Pentax makes it so in the firmware. Pass that on please Chris and Ben

JMS · 01-24-2008, 07:06 AM

Originally posted by mutley

Now, that's a great idea that they'll say is undoable because of "hardware-based", or some usual explanation.

I really doubt it's hardware based. Do you really think that the main mirror can keep up at 21fps?

Edvinas · 01-24-2008, 07:11 AM

As far as I understand K20D does not have contrast detection AF. Therefore this burst mode is going to be without focussing. And therefore it is just useless gimmick. Who needs low resolution out of focus pictures?

Even if they make larger files and slower rate, without focussing it is useless anyway.

Jodokast96 · 01-24-2008, 07:16 AM

Something that may or may not have already been brought up here, but that did pop into my head on another site about whay the did what they did. It's all just a random thought that came to me not really based on much of anything, so keep that in mind.

Could the reason for going the way they did have to do with nothing more than the AF? It was asked (though not yet answered AFAIK) how the AF will work in the Burst mode, and speculated that it will only maintain the focus of the first shot throughout the burst. If that's the case, and the current AF can really only maintain focus at a max of 3fps, then isn't it possible that the only usable results they could come up with were a very fast speed at a rather small resolution? So that if you were to go with a larger file (more to pixel peep) at a slower rate (more time between shots for things to change), the two combined could produce unsatisfactory results?

time-snaps · 01-24-2008, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by walter

I suspect some of the intermediate resolutions (like 6 or 8 MP) are hard to do, because the scaling requires too much processing time. 1.6MP works out to combining 3x3 pixel block into a single pixel which should be easy to do quickly. I don't know why they don't do have a 3.6MP @ 8 or 9 fps mode (combining a 2x2 block into a single pixel. I don't think it would be any harder than the 20fps mode and would be more useful for me. RAW mode would be nice too, even if it decreases the max number of frames.

Is anyone in the know about image processing able to shed some more light onto this one...?! Kind of get the idea, but like to understand this better.

time-snaps · 01-24-2008, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by Peter Zack

I sure hope that it's scaleable or Pentax makes it so in the firmware. Pass that on please Chris and Ben

I second that! please listen Pentax... you produce a great tool, but think photojournalist for a moment

mutley · 01-24-2008, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by Edvinas

As far as I understand K20D does not have contrast detection AF. Therefore this burst mode is going to be without focussing. And therefore it is just useless gimmick. Who needs low resolution out of focus pictures?

Even if they make larger files and slower rate, without focusing it is useless anyway.

This has got to be not true. Even other live view cameras have contrast detection focus last year. As it is done by the sensor, can't that be implemented in firmware?

Completely ignoring this would be ridiculous.

Couldn't they get a clue from the rumors we posted that it was supposed to have it, and then include it?

THAN THE SWORD · 01-24-2008, 05:12 PM

If they can make it work why not have the greatest range in fps possible?

If you are any kind of photographer, and if you own the K10D then you are some kind of serious, you have experianced the special angst of not having the exact piece of equipment or capability availab le to capture that once in a lifetime shot.

I would rather have it and not need it instead of the other way round.

I have used the multi exposure feature of the K10D 3 times in the last year and one of those shots is worth it all.

Give me everything and then I will decide what I want and when I want it.....

RBellavance · 01-24-2008, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by mutley

This has got to be not true. Even other live view cameras have contrast detection focus last year. As it is done by the sensor, can't that be implemented in firmware?

If you read Codiac2600's "2500 word essay" on the K20D, he clearly states that the mirror flips down for autofocusing during live view...

mutley · 01-24-2008, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by RBellavance

If you read Codiac2600's "2500 word essay" on the K20D, he clearly states that the mirror flips down for autofocusing during live view...

Yes, I'm well aware of how ridiculous that decision by Pentax would be. But, He also said the camera he tested didn't have everything working.

It might be there when things are clearer. They couldn't have just forgotten to add a major live view judging point like Contrast Detect focusing.

If they actually did, being purely sensor/software controlled, they should figure out how to add it by firmware if possible.

View Poll Results: What would you like to see in the final release of the K20D
Leave it at 20 fps in 1.6Mp mode	10	5.15%
Being able to adjust it between 20fps and 3 fps with a corresponding file increase	158	81.44%
Disable this, its a useless gimmick	31	15.98%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 194. You may not vote on this poll

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01-23-2008, 09:01 PM	#16
alib99 Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 90	Originally posted by HawaiianOnline Some have said the 3fps is fine. Heck, 1 or 2 fps is fine if you don't do a lot of action or birding (specifically BIF). All I know is that when I borrowed a 1DMkII, I got a higher keeper rate BECAUSE of the faster AF and FPS. At one time, I was specifically looking for a used one with a couple of long teles to do this kind of photography. Then I heard about the K20D and I hoped that it would have a higher fps. So much for that. The K20D is not comparable to the af and framerate performance of the 1DMkII. If anything, it's more like the 1DsMKII, a studio, landscape, and single shot beast (if the IQ holds up). I will probably get it just for those purposes, but I will still be hunting for a sport and BIF rig... Unfortunately you are right.

01-23-2008, 10:32 PM	#17
Andrew Faires Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Ontario Posts: 744	6mp at 5 or 6 fps would seal the deal....even if AF is exactly the same as with the k10d (which I suspect). Personally, if they can't do that, I've honestly got no use for 20fps at 1.6mp....it's a waste of time & memory imho. Aside from that, there's a lot of promise to the k20d - especially with a better dampened mirror assembly. That alone isn't enough for me to buy in the next 6 months though.

01-23-2008, 11:00 PM	#18
lol101 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Garennes sur Eure France Photos: Gallery Posts: 899	Originally posted by Duplo I voted C. IMHO the framerate has to follow the ability of the AF system to be of use... Amen to that! 3fps with a good tracking AF is OK in 90% of situations where one would like to use higher fps... 20fps without AF is useless (once you will have done pictures of water drops, milk drops, ink drops and oil drops, you'll get tired of it I think...)

01-24-2008, 02:45 AM	#19
walter Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: California Photos: Gallery Posts: 239	I suspect some of the intermediate resolutions (like 6 or 8 MP) are hard to do, because the scaling requires too much processing time. 1.6MP works out to combining 3x3 pixel block into a single pixel which should be easy to do quickly. I don't know why they don't do have a 3.6MP @ 8 or 9 fps mode (combining a 2x2 block into a single pixel. I don't think it would be any harder than the 20fps mode and would be more useful for me. RAW mode would be nice too, even if it decreases the max number of frames. Pentax isn't afraid to add new features in firmware, so I'm hoping we'll see at least one intermediate mode.

01-24-2008, 02:53 AM	#20
mutley Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: LI, NY Posts: 313	Originally posted by BrendanPK Please Pentax can you make a firmware upgrade to alow user controled FPS-burst MP/file adjustment. I dont mind being able to only shoot 12-10mp at 4-5fps or 5-6mp at 6-7fps or even 4-5mp at8fps but at 1.6mp its rather unless to have even at 20fps. Now, that's a great idea that they'll say is undoable because of "hardware-based", or some usual explanation.

01-24-2008, 06:59 AM	#21
Peter Zack Pentaxian Moderator Emeritus Join Date: May 2007 Location: Edmonton Alberta, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 10,643	I sure hope that it's scaleable or Pentax makes it so in the firmware. Pass that on please Chris and Ben

01-24-2008, 07:06 AM	#22
JMS Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 273	Originally posted by mutley Now, that's a great idea that they'll say is undoable because of "hardware-based", or some usual explanation. I really doubt it's hardware based. Do you really think that the main mirror can keep up at 21fps?

01-24-2008, 07:11 AM	#23
Edvinas Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kaunas Posts: 1,458	As far as I understand K20D does not have contrast detection AF. Therefore this burst mode is going to be without focussing. And therefore it is just useless gimmick. Who needs low resolution out of focus pictures? Even if they make larger files and slower rate, without focussing it is useless anyway.

01-24-2008, 07:16 AM	#24
Jodokast96 Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Erial, NJ USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,134	Something that may or may not have already been brought up here, but that did pop into my head on another site about whay the did what they did. It's all just a random thought that came to me not really based on much of anything, so keep that in mind. Could the reason for going the way they did have to do with nothing more than the AF? It was asked (though not yet answered AFAIK) how the AF will work in the Burst mode, and speculated that it will only maintain the focus of the first shot throughout the burst. If that's the case, and the current AF can really only maintain focus at a max of 3fps, then isn't it possible that the only usable results they could come up with were a very fast speed at a rather small resolution? So that if you were to go with a larger file (more to pixel peep) at a slower rate (more time between shots for things to change), the two combined could produce unsatisfactory results?

01-24-2008, 10:36 AM	#25
time-snaps Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Beijing, China Photos: Gallery Posts: 86 Original Poster	Originally posted by walter I suspect some of the intermediate resolutions (like 6 or 8 MP) are hard to do, because the scaling requires too much processing time. 1.6MP works out to combining 3x3 pixel block into a single pixel which should be easy to do quickly. I don't know why they don't do have a 3.6MP @ 8 or 9 fps mode (combining a 2x2 block into a single pixel. I don't think it would be any harder than the 20fps mode and would be more useful for me. RAW mode would be nice too, even if it decreases the max number of frames. Is anyone in the know about image processing able to shed some more light onto this one...?! Kind of get the idea, but like to understand this better.

01-24-2008, 10:38 AM	#26
time-snaps Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Beijing, China Photos: Gallery Posts: 86 Original Poster	Originally posted by Peter Zack I sure hope that it's scaleable or Pentax makes it so in the firmware. Pass that on please Chris and Ben I second that! please listen Pentax... you produce a great tool, but think photojournalist for a moment

01-24-2008, 03:39 PM	#27
mutley Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: LI, NY Posts: 313	Originally posted by Edvinas As far as I understand K20D does not have contrast detection AF. Therefore this burst mode is going to be without focussing. And therefore it is just useless gimmick. Who needs low resolution out of focus pictures? Even if they make larger files and slower rate, without focusing it is useless anyway. This has got to be not true. Even other live view cameras have contrast detection focus last year. As it is done by the sensor, can't that be implemented in firmware? Completely ignoring this would be ridiculous. Couldn't they get a clue from the rumors we posted that it was supposed to have it, and then include it?

01-24-2008, 05:12 PM	#28
THAN THE SWORD Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: TEXASS Photos: Gallery Posts: 151	If they can make it work why not have the greatest range in fps possible? If you are any kind of photographer, and if you own the K10D then you are some kind of serious, you have experianced the special angst of not having the exact piece of equipment or capability availab le to capture that once in a lifetime shot. I would rather have it and not need it instead of the other way round. I have used the multi exposure feature of the K10D 3 times in the last year and one of those shots is worth it all. Give me everything and then I will decide what I want and when I want it.....

01-24-2008, 05:26 PM	#29
RBellavance Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Near Montréal, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,716	Originally posted by mutley This has got to be not true. Even other live view cameras have contrast detection focus last year. As it is done by the sensor, can't that be implemented in firmware? If you read Codiac2600's "2500 word essay" on the K20D, he clearly states that the mirror flips down for autofocusing during live view...

01-24-2008, 10:28 PM	#30
mutley Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: LI, NY Posts: 313	Originally posted by RBellavance If you read Codiac2600's "2500 word essay" on the K20D, he clearly states that the mirror flips down for autofocusing during live view... Yes, I'm well aware of how ridiculous that decision by Pentax would be. But, He also said the camera he tested didn't have everything working. It might be there when things are clearer. They couldn't have just forgotten to add a major live view judging point like Contrast Detect focusing. If they actually did, being purely sensor/software controlled, they should figure out how to add it by firmware if possible.