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01-24-2008, 07:03 AM   #1
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Innovative? Ground-Breaking? How About This...

First off, this isn't a whining thread about the K20D. It looks to be better than the K10D in one of that camera's weak points - the sensor. Good for Pentax, and I hope it sells like hotcakes.

But for those who think that a new sensor alone is innovative and/or groundbreaking - I couldn't disagree more. Here are some ideas that I think are truly innovative and groundbreaking - and I hope Pentax can do some of them.

(In no particular order.)
  • Partner with PocketWizards and build in PW-compatible wireless flash.
  • Mechanical coupling for M- and K-mount bayonet lenses. (Nikon's D2xx/D3xx series has this already, but it would be far more beneficial to the Pentax user IMO.)
  • A real, dedicated manual focus screen!
  • More sensitive (say, f/2) autofocus sensors. This would make the fast lenses less prone to AF failure without having to change the AF engine.
  • Less MP with HUGE pixels. Think about how bold Nikon was in keeping the D3 down to 12MP - how about Pentax using their new sensor technology to build a 10MP camera with a 6MP profile? Cool!)
  • Ability to add annotated audio. This is not intended as 'video' but rather a small mp3 file that you can record after the shot details of the shot. Kind of like a built-in notepad.

I'm sure others can add tremendously to this list. I even left off fanciful never-happen innovations like swappable lens mounts, allowing the use of other brand lenses. What do you say?

01-24-2008, 07:08 AM   #2
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Unfortunately I don't think we're getting the aperture coupler back. CMIIW, but I believe the aperture coupler goes in the same place as the SDM contacts.
01-24-2008, 07:13 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by carpents Quote
First off, this isn't a whining thread about the K20D. It looks to be better than the K10D in one of that camera's weak points - the sensor. Good for Pentax, and I hope it sells like hotcakes.

But for those who think that a new sensor alone is innovative and/or groundbreaking - I couldn't disagree more. Here are some ideas that I think are truly innovative and groundbreaking - and I hope Pentax can do some of them.

(In no particular order.)
  • More sensitive (say, f/2) autofocus sensors. This would make the fast lenses less prone to AF failure without having to change the AF engine.
  • Less MP with HUGE pixels. Think about how bold Nikon was in keeping the D3 down to 12MP - how about Pentax using their new sensor technology to build a 10MP camera with a 6MP profile? Cool!)

I'm sure others can add tremendously to this list. I even left off fanciful never-happen innovations like swappable lens mounts, allowing the use of other brand lenses. What do you say?
As far as f2 AF sensor, they would only work with f2 and f1.4 lenses which are not so many oin the Pentax lineup.
An f2.8 sensor would be nice although I manage quite well with K10 and 50f1.4

Less MP with huge pixels: I am all for it but apparently, it wouldn't sell... oh well, let's just hope K20D IQ is up to excpectations, it will amply reward the wait (at least for me)
01-24-2008, 07:15 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
Less MP with huge pixels: I am all for it but apparently, it wouldn't sell...
I think it would sell if Pentax boosts the AF capability and framerate to 8 fps or so.

01-24-2008, 07:43 AM   #5
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A truly innovative and groundbreaking feature in my opinion would be - open source firmware and corresponding development tools.
Imagine a DSLR that would enable those with enough skills in programming to tweak the camera just as they see fit. Remapping buttons, using complex actions with one press of a button, tweaking focus/exposure/white balance algorithms etc. etc.
Opportunities are endless.
And the amount of people who would write alternative firmwares would probably be huge.
Meaning something for every taste.
Meaning those with very specific needs could have a camera tweaked *exactly* to their desires.
Meaning every new feature that competition brings out, and that is achievable by firmware upgrade would probably be available within days.
I could go on for some time

Of course it would need a certain sequence of keypresses at startup (remember the tweak menu), that would reset the firmware to a working built-in default.

Sadly I know that I'm dreaming big-time here. Intellectual property problems, trade secrets etc. will never allow this to happen.
But one can dream ...
01-24-2008, 08:36 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by JMS Quote
Unfortunately I don't think we're getting the aperture coupler back. CMIIW, but I believe the aperture coupler goes in the same place as the SDM contacts.
No, the SDM contacts take the place of the old Power Zoom contacts. Power Zoom is truly a defunct feature, but aperture coupling isn't.

The aperture coupling was done by a mechanical lever on the right side of the K mount (it the camera is facing you.)

It was great, as it lets you use M and K lenses without stopping down, plus the camera knows what ap the shot was taken at and can write it on the EXIF data.

I don't know why they canned it. Probably to save weight.
01-24-2008, 09:09 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
No, the SDM contacts take the place of the old Power Zoom contacts. Power Zoom is truly a defunct feature, but aperture coupling isn't.

I don't know why they canned it. Probably to save weight.
No one is listening! This from pentaximaging.com:

Type/construction - Pentax KAF2 bayonet stainless steel mount;
Usable lenses - Pentax KAF2, KAF, and KA (K mount, 35mm screwmount, 645/67 med format useable w/ adapter and/or restrictions);
SDM function - YES;
Power zoom function - YES


Slightly unrelated - it also says this in the VIEWFINDER specs:

Type - Pentaprism;
Coverage (field of view) - 95%;
Magnification - 0.95x (w/ 50mm f/1.4 at infinity);
Standard focusing screen - Natural-Bright-Matte II;
Diopter adjustment - -2.5 to 1.5;
Depth of field preview - Optical diaphragm stop down, Digital, Live View (FOV 100%, magnification 4x/8x available, grid pattern available)

And then again on the LCD:

Type - 2.7” TFT color LCD monitor, adjustable brightness/color, Live View available (TTL by image sensor, 100% FOV); Resolution - Approx 230,000 dots Wide angle viewable: YES, approx 160 degrees horizontal/vertical

Looks like they got carried away by the rumours :]
That's a very bad error. None of the official websites seem to be 100% ready, they either don't have full specs for the camera or have samples and sections missing, as well as mixed up images from the 2 new bodies.

Last edited by ricardobeat; 01-24-2008 at 09:18 AM.
01-24-2008, 09:28 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by carpents Quote
(In no particular order.)
  • Partner with PocketWizards and build in PW-compatible wireless flash.
  • Mechanical coupling for M- and K-mount bayonet lenses. (Nikon's D2xx/D3xx series has this already, but it would be far more beneficial to the Pentax user IMO.)
  • A real, dedicated manual focus screen!
  • More sensitive (say, f/2) autofocus sensors. This would make the fast lenses less prone to AF failure without having to change the AF engine.
  • Less MP with HUGE pixels. Think about how bold Nikon was in keeping the D3 down to 12MP - how about Pentax using their new sensor technology to build a 10MP camera with a 6MP profile? Cool!)
  • Ability to add annotated audio. This is not intended as 'video' but rather a small mp3 file that you can record after the shot details of the shot. Kind of like a built-in notepad.
1) Nikon did this in their old D1 series, I thought it was great, appariently it didnt cetch on. I would love it bit it does take up room in body for the electronics (its a built in transiever)
2) Couldn't agree more, more Pentax users use old MF lenses than anyone and this would shut up the dumb sales people saying old lenses wont work on the thing (though they do with limited function)
3) Agree, come back out with a split-focus screen like all the 3rd party guys have.
4) AF needs improvment no doubt, this could be a sloution, but I am not sure if SAFOX would need the upgrade too
5) A dedicated camera for High-speed/low light would be better served with the less MP/LargerMP sites. this could be a nitch product and to develope a sensor (even say redesign a 10mpCCD into this great space-saving tech that they used on the new 14mpCMOS would be great but they would have to be able to sell it I say a min of ISO6400 with option for higher, make 6400 look like 400-800 and add 8fps they have a winning sports camera (if the af is better)
6) Audio!
Yes I cannot agree more. Even if its in a grip option like the old D100 had, I could use audio-tagging/captioning in my day to day job so much (photojournalist) Also handy for the landscaper or wedding photog to give mental notes on comp, requests etc.


I was not expecting all of these in the K20D that just came out, butI was expecting a few: faster FPS option (however it would come about, say a high-speed crop mode) and X-Sync to be 1/250th but i guess its not here yet.
Lets see if a pro-oriented K_D will come with these features, even if its a tweeked 14mp chip thats in the K20D now, add these features (everything listed above except the MPsize thing) and it would be a winner and would not steal from K20D sales or vice-versa

01-24-2008, 10:43 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by procyon Quote
A truly innovative and groundbreaking feature in my opinion would be - open source firmware and corresponding development tools.
YES!!

What a great idea, this is truly innovative. I had this idea for expired products, like somehow making the *ist D/DS/DL firmware available for update in open source software. This would be a cult hit, for sure.

BTW, some Canon users figured out how to hack into some of their firmware and added abilities that weren't originally there. I think they added RAW capture to certain digicams among other things.
01-24-2008, 12:16 PM   #10
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Great ideas

ps. From this point I will name the 'K20D' as 'K10D mkII' because it's basic is the same.

The mechanical link for the aperture should be there.
It had to be there in all their previous models also.

And what I would like to see also is a larger and 100% viewfinder.

Larger pixels would be nice also, especially when you shoot allot in rooms where is not very much light(like dancing clubs) like I do often, so you can push the ISO to sky high.
On the other hand, a lot of pixels give you the possibility to crop some what more and than even print them out large.

Off course a faster and more accurate AF system is a wish for all ready a very very very long time, let's see.....mmm from the *ist D. That's from 2003 !
The same 16 segment metering(the basis of it is the same), same max shutter speed of 1/4000 same flash sync of 1/180.
Practical the same FPS(the *ist D had 2,7 according the specs), yes a deeper buffer, but that's the time isn't it ?
Same crippled mount...same -non- existing flash assistant.

Mmm what are the real new features from the K10D mkII in comparison with the *ist D ?

- Weather Sealing +++
- Shake Reduction +++
- Resolution....+
- Live View......well it is a new feature if it is useful I have my doubts in this configuration
- Deeper buffer +++
- SDM lens support +++
- Larger LCD +++
- Dust Removal thingy(isn't working usefully on the K10D mkI though on the mkII is not known yet )

I think that is it
That took uhmm lets see 2008 - 2003 = 5, five years to do so.
What did they forget to do ?
Well my wish list:

- Non crippled mount(had to be there in the *ist D)
- Better AF system, more points please, take the D300 as example.
- Better metering system, Nikon has a great metering system with their 1005px sensor
- Larger more high resolution LCD
- Faster max shutter speed
- Faster Flash sync
- Deeper Buffer
- A higher FPS speed
- A battery grip with a hand strap possibility


The above things, had to be in the K10D mkII

And later on maybe a 'real' K20D(so will be named K30D) ? With the above mentioned specs ?
01-24-2008, 12:27 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Priyantha Bleeker Quote
ps. From this point I will name the 'K20D' as 'K10D mkII'
That is silly, almost childish, in fact.

If the camera does not suit you, just don't buy it. There's no point in wishing it was different, it is not and you can't change that. You may disagree with Pentax's chosen feature set, but the fact is *they* build it, and not you. They likely had good reasons to make it like they did.
01-24-2008, 12:44 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by procyon Quote
Sadly I know that I'm dreaming big-time here. Intellectual property problems, trade secrets etc. will never allow this to happen.
But one can dream ...
I agree it's unlikely. But a whole lot could be done with a closed firmware with an open scripting API, especially if it had hooks for replacing the metering program, adjusting JPEG properties, redefining buttons and menus, etc. Maybe even something which let one get at the RAW sensor data.
01-24-2008, 12:45 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by RBellavance Quote
That is silly, almost childish, in fact.

If the camera does not suit you, just don't buy it. There's no point in wishing it was different, it is not and you can't change that. You may disagree with Pentax's chosen feature set, but the fact is *they* build it, and not you. They likely had good reasons to make it like they did.
Well it was childish and it won't happen again
But I have made my point :P
And even after that complaining, maybe I will buy a K20D,
01-24-2008, 01:06 PM   #14
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Just amazing to me. Those of us that have complained about the fps isssue are called cry babies, complainers and such. We are told to buy something else if we do not like the camera--good thinking. How will that help Pentaxes future? I've been a Pentax shooter for a long time and have tryed other brands, but came back to Pentax last year because the K10D looked like Pentax was on track again. It's amazing to me that probably half of the photographers in this country started out with a Pentax but as their skills grew they had nothing in the Pentax line to grow with. Very short sighted on Pentaxes part. I now have to decide if I want to split my camera system to shoot sports or wait for the next "bomb" This lack of listening to their customers will cost Pentax a lot of sales, and I hate to see that.
01-24-2008, 01:17 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by kent vinyard Quote
This lack of listening to their customers will cost Pentax a lot of sales, and I hate to see that.
I'm not going to call any names or try to discredit people who would like a faster burst mode. But, this comment isn't really fair either. Clearly, Pentax has listened very carefully to their customers (see this thread for examples) in designing this camera.

But, as with everything in photography, they had to make compromises to come in at the price point they felt they needed to meet. Not having a high-resolution LCD and not providing a super burst rate (not that 3fps is really horrible) are things they had to compromise on.

The fact that they do provide a low-res burst mode at all demonstrates that they are listening. They just have to make choices.
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