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01-26-2008, 10:10 AM   #31
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I've never lost a shot due to the buffer and I've never lost a shot to slow AF.

Of course, shooting single frames and using manual focus may have a lot to do with that.

01-26-2008, 10:29 AM   #32
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I personally am excited!

Personally, I'm really pleased with the K200 announcement, although its going to be a while before I get one. I reckon my DS will last another couple of years at least and I always buy second hand 'old' technology anyway.

I always will buy the smaller pentax cameras;the K10 and K20 are too big. Appreciate not everyone thinks this, but for me personally, if I wanted a big in your face camera I'd go Canikon.

However, reasons the K200 is certainly getting very tempting over the older D models.
1) Weather sealing (in a small camera, yey!!!!)
2) Shake reduction (OK, not new, but I've been tempted by this ever since the K100)
3) the dynamic range option sounds interesting
4) can use SDM if I ever afford any of the new * lenses

For me, as I mainly use my camera when travelling, the option of a small, but robust camera with some fun features the K200 is the clear winner (I already get my DS quite wet at times and as it is old I am not as careful as I should be, but weather sealing would be even better). I don't need high fps and a better buffer. Of course, if it also offered those features that would be great, but for me, the innovative lenses and body handling are more important.

The only things that bother me about the K200 are:-
1) Lack of 3200
2) 10mp sensor-I'm pretty happy with 6mp and have a suspicion the 10mp might be noisier without that much resolution advantage. But, people want megapixels.
3) Penta-mirror. I love the penta-prism viewfinder of the DS.
4) When will a DSLR manufacturer think out of the box and sort out the user interface. You either gets lots of menus (DS, K100 etc.) or buttons (K10 and a lot of Canikons my friends have). Samsung should put its compact one touch system on a DSLR. Mobile phones, ipods etc. have some really ingenious ways of enabling you to quickly get what you want; cameras are behind. (The worst is actually the touchscreens on Sony camcorders; why bother with a touchscreen when you still have to go through a million menus to get what you want?).

At the end of the day, having seen my friends Canons which fire at a million frames per second, I still prefer my crappy DS with its rubbish JPEGs, because it is fun to use.

Now if they'd only hurry up on that 60-250mm.
01-26-2008, 10:46 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
The K10D has a stronger/faster motor. The *ist DS has a weaker motor. Why? It is called money!
The K10D also has more power thank's to the batteries - a more stable power supply.
Try out CR-V3 batteries in the *ist DS, it is like pressing a "turbo" button. AA rechargeables - slow, slow. The *ist DS is very sensitive to the batteries in use, a drawback with using AA batteries.
The K200D is said to have more efficient power management, so perhaps K200D does not have this issue. Don't know.

But, one interresting thing here.
Samsung has not released plans for a Samsung GX-2 (replacement for GX-1S/GX-1L, their version of K200D). So it seems like they will continue selling the GX-10 (K10D) as their "entry level"-alternative.
I'm actually impressed that Pentax still can keep their entry-level cameras humming along using AA batteries. That's a definite plus in my book, and a testament to the engineers for making efficient use of power.

I'm also curious about Samsung being content in only producing one DSLR per "generation" when Pentax at least has two from here on out. Knowing that Samsung had made the ubiquitous statements about wanting the proverbial 20% share, they could at least maintain a presence in the entry-level DSLR market, something that helps keep Nikon and Canon holding on to 80% of the market.

It would be interesting if they kept the GX-10 in production until the next round of updates.
01-26-2008, 11:02 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxkat Quote
However, reasons the K200 is certainly getting very tempting over the older D models.
1) Weather sealing (in a small camera, yey!!!!)
2) Shake reduction (OK, not new, but I've been tempted by this ever since the K100)
3) the dynamic range option sounds interesting
4) can use SDM if I ever afford any of the new * lenses
Yes, I'm also happy that Pentax included the weather-sealing in the K200D, and it was actually one of the features I was wishing for so Pentax would stand out some in the crowded entry-level market. People would certainly give the K200D a second look now, at least (if marketed properly showing the weather sealing).

As far as I understand, the SR of the K200D is just as good as the one on the K20D. It used to be that the SR of the K100D was slightly inferior to the K10D's, but from the specs, it seems to me that Pentax used the same improved system in both, and is quite thoughtful on Pentax's part.

QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxkat Quote
The only things that bother me about the K200 are:-
1) Lack of 3200
2) 10mp sensor-I'm pretty happy with 6mp and have a suspicion the 10mp might be noisier without that much resolution advantage. But, people want megapixels.
3) Penta-mirror. I love the penta-prism viewfinder of the DS.
4) When will a DSLR manufacturer think out of the box and sort out the user interface. You either gets lots of menus (DS, K100 etc.) or buttons (K10 and a lot of Canikons my friends have). Samsung should put its compact one touch system on a DSLR. Mobile phones, ipods etc. have some really ingenious ways of enabling you to quickly get what you want; cameras are behind. (The worst is actually the touchscreens on Sony camcorders; why bother with a touchscreen when you still have to go through a million menus to get what you want?).

At the end of the day, having seen my friends Canons which fire at a million frames per second, I still prefer my crappy DS with its rubbish JPEGs, because it is fun to use.

Now if they'd only hurry up on that 60-250mm.
I don't think you'd want ISO 3200 on the same Sony 10MP CCD unless Pentax found a way to optimize the image some more, a la Sony with the A200.

Sony might probably have only enough production capability for the 6MP sensor to service Nikon. They still need to churn 12MP CMOSes for both the A700 and the D300, 10MP CCDs for the A200/K200D, and quite possibly whole new CMOSes/CCDs for their upcoming models.

As for the pentaprism, sorry. That's really a feature reserved for higher models, and also adds to the cost some. If it's any consolation, no other competitor in the K200D space also has a pentaprism.

I have to agree about Sony and menu-diving on a touchscreen. I just tried my colleague's T200, and while I really tripped over the smile shutter feature (really cool and fun fun fun!), setting up the camera for it required a number of jumps into different menus (not fun).

01-26-2008, 11:31 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
K200D has really small buffer for DSLR of 2008 year.
It's really BIG MINUS.
Canon 450D is MORE attractive camera with price just 100 USD higher.
Canon EOS 450D / Rebel XSi: what's changed: Digital Photography Review
Ugly back side with 3" LCD , but it's really power machine with a lot of new features and new battery grip.
K200D is too simple. I'm disappointed.
I completely agree. I was in the market for the K200 after reading it would have weather sealing and its own battery grip. I can perfectly live with the 2,8 fps, but NOT with the ridiculous buffer of only 4 RAW's.

On the other hand, K100 had only a buffer of 3 RAW images...
01-26-2008, 11:50 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxke Quote
I completely agree. I was in the market for the K200 after reading it would have weather sealing and its own battery grip. I can perfectly live with the 2,8 fps, but NOT with the ridiculous buffer of only 4 RAW's.

On the other hand, K100 had only a buffer of 3 RAW images...
I agree it seems small and may only be for 4 images, but I believe it flushes very quickly as it has the same processor and SD card interface as the K10D which is quick, they state 1.1 fps continious until the card is full which is the same as the K10D, so it will be quick with reviewing and clearing the buffer. Naturally this is card dependent, but 150x SD cards are cheap now.

Ask yourself, when did you last shoot 4 shots in continuous mode?

The K20D is twice as fast in continuous mode once the buffer is full, it runs at 2.3 fps, which is pretty fast. As a point of reference the Canon 40D runs at 1 fps in Raw and 3 fps in JPEG once the buffer is full (again card dependent, this is with an Extreme IV 2GB, an extreme III will be less).

So as far as reviewing and chimping, I don't think you'll notice much difference at all, in fact apart from the number of shots and fps rate into the buffer, the K200D may well feel even quicker! The K20D even more so!

Specs don't reveal everything, you need to look beyond the surface.
01-26-2008, 03:07 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Richard Day Quote
I agree it seems small and may only be for 4 images, but I believe it flushes very quickly as it has the same processor and SD card interface as the K10D which is quick, they state 1.1 fps continious until the card is full which is the same as the K10D, so it will be quick with reviewing and clearing the buffer. Naturally this is card dependent, but 150x SD cards are cheap now.

Ask yourself, when did you last shoot 4 shots in continuous mode?

The K20D is twice as fast in continuous mode once the buffer is full, it runs at 2.3 fps, which is pretty fast. As a point of reference the Canon 40D runs at 1 fps in Raw and 3 fps in JPEG once the buffer is full (again card dependent, this is with an Extreme IV 2GB, an extreme III will be less).

So as far as reviewing and chimping, I don't think you'll notice much difference at all, in fact apart from the number of shots and fps rate into the buffer, the K200D may well feel even quicker! The K20D even more so!

Specs don't reveal everything, you need to look beyond the surface.
Richard of course you're right and personally I don't need more buffer either, however the average customer doesn't look beyond the surface. The problem will be reviews, every single review of the K100D(S) criticized it for buffer:

1st point in the DPreview:
"Limited continuous shooting capability, buffer only large enough for four JPEG frames"

DCresource:
"It's not great for sports/action shooters, but for everyone else, it's absolutely worth a look."

"I couldn't help but be disappointed with the continuous shooting mode on the camera: the burst rate (a respectable 2.6 fps) slows down noticeable after just 3 RAW or 5 Best Quality JPEGs -- the competition does a better job here."

"The only people to whom I'd say "stay away!" would be those who take a lot of fast action shots, as the buffer memory fills up way too quickly."

WhatDigitalcamera:

"poor burst performance (making it a bad choice for sports and action)"

DigitalCameraReview:
"The 2.7fps continuous shooting performance is great, but the small image buffer of only 5 JPEGs or 3 RAW images severely limits the camera. "


Guess my point is clear. Furthermore most competition in it's class has unlimited JPG buffer, yet the K200D released 2 years later has even less than the heavy criticized K100D JPG buffer. I really wonder what the reason is, it's hard to believe it's technical cause the K10D could do 9 shots RAW. If they did it in the hope more people would buy a K20D in stead of the K200D that would be a serious misjudgement.

Again personally I don't care for more buffer, I just don't understand why Pentax compromises K200D reviews and thereby preventing more customers to seriously consider a Pentax instead of a more obvious choice for a mainstream Nikon or Canon.

Last edited by CSpronken; 01-26-2008 at 03:12 PM.
01-26-2008, 04:09 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by CSpronken Quote
Richard of course you're right and personally I don't need more buffer either, however the average customer doesn't look beyond the surface. The problem will be reviews, every single review of the K100D(S) criticized it for buffer:

1st point in the DPreview:
"Limited continuous shooting capability, buffer only large enough for four JPEG frames"

DCresource:
"It's not great for sports/action shooters, but for everyone else, it's absolutely worth a look."

"I couldn't help but be disappointed with the continuous shooting mode on the camera: the burst rate (a respectable 2.6 fps) slows down noticeable after just 3 RAW or 5 Best Quality JPEGs -- the competition does a better job here."

"The only people to whom I'd say "stay away!" would be those who take a lot of fast action shots, as the buffer memory fills up way too quickly."

WhatDigitalcamera:

"poor burst performance (making it a bad choice for sports and action)"

DigitalCameraReview:
"The 2.7fps continuous shooting performance is great, but the small image buffer of only 5 JPEGs or 3 RAW images severely limits the camera. "


Guess my point is clear. Furthermore most competition in it's class has unlimited JPG buffer, yet the K200D released 2 years later has even less than the heavy criticized K100D JPG buffer. I really wonder what the reason is, it's hard to believe it's technical cause the K10D could do 9 shots RAW. If they did it in the hope more people would buy a K20D in stead of the K200D that would be a serious misjudgement.

Again personally I don't care for more buffer, I just don't understand why Pentax compromises K200D reviews and thereby preventing more customers to seriously consider a Pentax instead of a more obvious choice for a mainstream Nikon or Canon.
I guess Pentax has taken a gamble here in trying to save costs and hoping that the other unique features will put it ahead of the others. I don't agree with their decision, after all memory is cheap, especially at bulk manufacturers cost, but I can see their point of view.

It will be interesting to see if they get lambasted again for this lack of buffer capacity, my guess is that they have shot themselves squarely in the foot, maybe it won't be damaging in the short term due to limited manufacturing capacity, but it could severely affect the rate at which they build up their new customer base.

I suspect we may well see a Super version with a bigger buffer in the near future.

Only time will tell.

01-27-2008, 04:11 AM   #39
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To make 6-7 RAW buffer instead 4 RAW would be much better.
I don't see any problem to enlarge buffer. No extra cost at all.
Sony made bigger buffer in A100 simply with A100's last firmware several month ago.
There are some situations where need to make several shots. K100D is very slow camera to clear buffer. I'd like to see K200D quicker...But...I have some doubts.
01-27-2008, 05:06 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
What to buy? I want 10 MP small camera with pentaprism and good buffer for my Pentax lenses.
K20D...maybe...But it's bigger and heavier. K20D is very interesting and strong machine.
K200D is old chassis camera. All is thru Fn and Menu button. ((
No choice at all again. K100D super has no AF adjustment menu and if we compare with ist DS,
DS is better in some ways.
I hate the grip of 100/110D. I'm happy that K200D has better grip for me, but I know how slow K100D writes files on card...I think that K200D too.

If Pentax puts pentaprism and 6 RAW buffer in K200D I would buy...
But Pentax didn't do it. I must use ist DS again... It's nonsense. Pentax has no low-end camera with good buffer for several years. It's absurd.
No choices? The price of a K200D when it's first launched will be more than what than the price of a K10D currently.

K10D has a pentaprism, much larger buffer, writes quickly, works with SD and SDHC, 10mp, better focusing than your DS, and many other usable features.

No, you won't get AF adjustment and it's heavier/bigger. However, the K10D is a very balanced camera and I can lug it around all day without being tired (and I have).

You'll be getting an advanced amateur camera and not a bigger camera for a price below many other beginner cameras! I don't see the Canon 450 as an overall better photographic tool than the K10D.

Conclusion: Buy a K10D now
01-27-2008, 06:59 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Richard Day Quote
I agree it seems small and may only be for 4 images, but I believe it flushes very quickly as it has the same processor and SD card interface as the K10D which is quick, they state 1.1 fps continious until the card is full which is the same as the K10D, so it will be quick with reviewing and clearing the buffer. Naturally this is card dependent, but 150x SD cards are cheap now.

Ask yourself, when did you last shoot 4 shots in continuous mode?

The K20D is twice as fast in continuous mode once the buffer is full, it runs at 2.3 fps, which is pretty fast. As a point of reference the Canon 40D runs at 1 fps in Raw and 3 fps in JPEG once the buffer is full (again card dependent, this is with an Extreme IV 2GB, an extreme III will be less).

So as far as reviewing and chimping, I don't think you'll notice much difference at all, in fact apart from the number of shots and fps rate into the buffer, the K200D may well feel even quicker! The K20D even more so!

Specs don't reveal everything, you need to look beyond the surface.
Hi Richard,

have you tried the K200D yet? IS it fast in clearing the buffer?

Have to admit, if it's as fast at flushing the images as the K10D, then maybe it's not a big deal...

On the other hand: one thing that I hated my ist D for was the fact that it only had a limited buffer of 6 RAWS. And boy, does it take a long time to wait untill the buffer is cleared again. I have used the D a lot for weddings and there is simply no chance to say to the couple: "och wait, buffer full, will you wait a little before kissing...?"

I'm not in the market for the K20, as I'm not very fond of the K10 I have right now (even thinking of selling the thing ), because ergonomics are 'weird' (for lack of better word) if you compare to the ist D. But I am in the market for the K200D, because it's compact and because the ergonomics (second dial apart) come closer to the D than the K10 does (that's my opinion anyway, your mileage may vary.) So when I read about the 4 image buffer, hell, what does RAM cost these days?

Why doesn't Pentax make an update of the ist D?
01-27-2008, 10:42 AM   #42
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Need to wait PMA
01-27-2008, 10:54 AM   #43
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As for me, K200D is not worse than A200. The only minus -
buffer 4 vs 6 RAW and unlimited jpg - 1.1 fps vs 3 fps.
A100 has buffer 6 RAW on paper, but it can shoot 9-12 RAW in reality with quick card.
Maybe, K200D can shoot 5-6 RAW?

BUT, to say true.

K200D is THE ONLY camera on market of low-end /amateur DSLR which has:
1. RAW button and green button
2. weather resistant
3. Sv
4. AA, Lithium AA, NiCd, NiMh or CR-V3
5. DNG format
6. Color temperature tuning.
7.??? AF adjustment
8. 11 points of AF
01-27-2008, 10:59 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by AVANT Quote
No choices? The price of a K200D when it's first launched will be more than what than the price of a K10D currently.

K10D has a pentaprism, much larger buffer, writes quickly, works with SD and SDHC, 10mp, better focusing than your DS, and many other usable features.

No, you won't get AF adjustment and it's heavier/bigger. However, the K10D is a very balanced camera and I can lug it around all day without being tired (and I have).

You'll be getting an advanced amateur camera and not a bigger camera for a price below many other beginner cameras! I don't see the Canon 450 as an overall better photographic tool than the K10D.

Conclusion: Buy a K10D now
I think that K200D will have better images than K10D and K200D is smaller than K10D.
01-28-2008, 04:02 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
I think that K200D will have better images than K10D and K200D is smaller than K10D.
I don't think the K200D will have better images. When viewing RAW converted images, I believe the 2 cameras will be almost identical. JPG might be better, but you've put so much emphasis talking about RAW that I'm assuming that's what you prefer to shoot in. You should also recall that the K10D RAW is unrivaled by any of it's current price range and class competitors.

As for size

K100D Super 5.1 x 3.6 x 2.8 @ 20.1oz
K200D 5.2 x 3.7 x2.9 @ 22.2 oz
K10D 5.6 x 4.0 x 2.7 @25.0 oz

The size and weight difference is minimal to me (and you mention using a grip? wouldn't that only add more size and weight anyways?). When I want small, I carry my P&S... but that's just me and you're entitled to your opinion.

I think a simple reason of "I rather have the newest model" is a much better argument than what you've presented so far.

Last edited by AVANT; 01-28-2008 at 04:10 AM.
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