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01-25-2008, 02:25 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by SpecialK Quote
This was due to the apparent reluctance of the reviewer to make the in-camera adjustments they said were possible which produced more pleasing images. They put adjustable settings there for a reason.
I can testify that. I made a few small adjustments to the in camera jpeg settings and got quite nice results. I even had comments from a canon shooter asking if i had shot in RAW and converted after they saw how sharp and punchy they were.

But back to the original topic, the k20D doesnt really do anything more for me that i need that the k10 doesnt already do. I wish they had fixed a few things and added a few more. In the end, i wont buy the camera, big deal. Ill wait until the next one comes out and see what that does over the k10.

Oh and also, from a price and feature point, it doesnt look all that competitive any more (wont go into any more detail unless someone wants me to).

01-25-2008, 03:44 AM   #17
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i agree...nobody here is saying that iq won't be good. it Must be as they say: VERY VER GOOD.
But from a marketing point f view, for this class of camera megapixel are not everythin, and other specs are as imortant as megapixel. In every other respects the k20d s behind the competition. It's not a poblem of me ben or any other pentax user, it's a problem f pentax and it's capacity to attract new users.
01-25-2008, 03:51 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by jonny1986 Quote
i agree...nobody here is saying that iq won't be good. it Must be as they say: VERY VER GOOD.
But from a marketing point f view, for this class of camera megapixel are not everythin, and other specs are as imortant as megapixel. In every other respects the k20d s behind the competition. It's not a poblem of me ben or any other pentax user, it's a problem f pentax and it's capacity to attract new users.

IMO there is no other camera in this class except for the D90 that is not out yet and has just basically been killed by the K20...

And if you think MP and good IQ don't attract new clients... be ready for a surprise
01-25-2008, 04:38 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
IMO there is no other camera in this class except for the D90 that is not out yet and has just basically been killed by the K20...

And if you think MP and good IQ don't attract new clients... be ready for a surprise
so the camera is priced i thesemi pro compartment but should compete with the successor of d80?
1300 dollar for mre res and a unproved high iso performance?
I think the price will sink very fast cause at this price they wont sell a lot.

01-25-2008, 05:00 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Igilligan Quote
I just realized that you are a moderator on this forum. I had read a few of your posts in the other forum and thought to myself, wow this guy is gettin hot under the collar... You are so 'not' moderate over on that forum, but over here you are a Moderater? 8^)

Thank goodness for freedom of speech and ideas...
I guess this debate has even got the moderates dander up... haha

No point to this except I had just left that forum and came here and saw this one. I thought it was funny. No charactor attack intended at all. It just a play on the word moderator
Your tone does not sound too moderate either. Definitely this sounds personal!

I think he is making a valid point here and you are making a mockery out of it. Well, maybe he should moderate you first!
01-25-2008, 05:29 AM   #21
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Exactly, well put Jas

QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
In my opinion, this K20D is far more than just a k10d with an updated sensor. Check out the side by side numbers and features and compare what the k20D offers that the k10D does not and this is why I say what I say.

Like some of these posts have mentioned, this camera was uber-hyped by fantasy "wish-list" type of message boarding (not just here, but on other forums as well) over the past month and I think people were falsely expecting this thing to the the camera that puts every other camera ever put on the market to shame, in the dust, etc...I mean really, was anyone honestly expecting that in reality? In short, I think Pentax has definitely made a step in a positive direction and the evolution of the Pentax line continues. Afterall, there will most likely be another one in the pipe by this time next year, if not already on the drawing boards as I am typing this.

Jas
You are right Jas, many people are missing the point totally, these are exciting developments... yes I would have liked more accurate low light AF, but otherwise my K10D is still the camera it was 3 days ago, and it will be the same in another year. I will upgrade in 6 months maybe, when the bugs are out of the firmware... it is software after all.
01-25-2008, 05:47 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by jonny1986 Quote
so the camera is priced i thesemi pro compartment but should compete with the successor of d80?
1300 dollar for mre res and a unproved high iso performance?
I think the price will sink very fast cause at this price they wont sell a lot.

Of course the K20 is a direct competitor of future upgrades to D80, you just said yourself it wasn't D300 competition so what would it compete against?

Price wise (body only, MSRP): K20D(1200$)<40D ($1300)<A700($1400)<E3($1600)<D300($1800) so yes, it's placed at the bottom of the semi-pro compartment and a bit over its spec sheet but since they have no direct competitior on the segment yet....

But it is supposed to offer some features (on the IQ front) that no other DSLR have and that justify a starting MSRP price higher than the K10 did.

Another thing to note is that the semi-pro prices are a good $200 above K20D, except the excellent 40D that went down in price $300 from the 30D: kuddos to Canon to have been able to do that but do you really think that the upgrade 30D==>40D was more significant than K10D==>K20D?

As for Pentax, they have to recoup their R&D costs before the D90 comes (end of 2008?) and that they might want to bring the price to a more friendly $999 body only in 2009.
01-25-2008, 06:09 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Igilligan Quote
I just realized that you are a moderator on this forum. ...
As you said its a bit out of contest all your quotes are from my second post in that thread after being personally attacked after just expressing my opinion on a thread designed to attack anyone who didn't have a problem with the k20d..

1) You didn't quote the initial personal attacks against me in the previous post I was responding to..

2) This is just a personal request, not as a mod, wouldn't it be more appropriate for you to respond in the forum in question rather than responding here to a thread on a different site?

And yes a lot of the people over on the other forum do bother me, that forum really went to hell and unfortunately a lot of the nice/knowledgable people have left or visit far less often..


Last edited by joele; 01-25-2008 at 06:26 AM.
01-25-2008, 08:52 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by SpecialK Quote
This was due to the apparent reluctance of the reviewer to make the in-camera adjustments they said were possible which produced more pleasing images. They put adjustable settings there for a reason.
That refusal by DPReview to simply adjust a setting was silly. That's like me test driving a car and refusing to adjust the seat for my height when I get behind the steering wheel, then complaining it was hard to reach the pedals.

Phil & Simon made matters worse when they got offended by the criticism from the Pentax forum. They became obstinate and at that point it was just a food fight.

The simple fact is Pentax did really well with the DS/K100/K10 and will do well with the K20. The most objective piece of evidence you will find for this is the used market - take a look at eBay where not only have volumes of used Pentax lenses dried up but prices have gone up.

When volumes are down and prices up in the used market, that's a sign the brand is healthy. Pentax has been going out of business for 30 years according to the self-appointed-experts and "everyone" seems to know it but Pentax!

Oh, I'll choose image quality over FPS any day, thank you very much.

Last edited by tranq78; 01-25-2008 at 09:00 AM.
01-25-2008, 10:08 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by tranq78 Quote
That refusal by DPReview to simply adjust a setting was silly. That's like me test driving a car and refusing to adjust the seat for my height when I get behind the steering wheel, then complaining it was hard to reach the pedals.
It's also a myth. As it says in the review, they tried with different settings and didn't see a change in the results.
01-25-2008, 11:46 AM   #26
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Oh my brothers... this is so sad

This is what happens when the battle lines are drawn in the sand... you cant even make fun anymore...


THE less than MODERATE MODERATOR come on guys.... it is humor

I just thought it was amusing... I literally left Joele's comments in the other forum and came over here, opened this thread and realized Joele was a moderator... I thought it funny that is all. That even the moderate folks were being pushed past the point of moderate...I realized it was a risk posting... that someone would read it wrong...
Was I wrong to think this forum would be any different than the nasty way people were treating each other in that other one. I hoped not.

QuoteOriginally posted by roentarre Quote
Your tone does not sound too moderate either. Definitely this sounds personal!

I think he is making a valid point here and you are making a mockery out of it. Well, maybe he should moderate you first!
Roentarre, I think both side have valid points not just Joele's, I can see both sides. It is just hard to see some people dog an entire system based on 1 or two features, and some people being told to pack their bags and sell their gear just because they have a different opinion.
It is the extremes on both sides that is so ugly.

I will not apologize for seeing humor in the issue though. So if you feel I should be 'moderated' for my words then, so be it.
-gus-


QuoteOriginally posted by joele Quote
As you said its a bit out of contest all your quotes are from my second post in that thread after being personally attacked after just expressing my opinion on a thread designed to attack anyone who didn't have a problem with the k20d..

1) You didn't quote the initial personal attacks against me in the previous post I was responding to..

2) This is just a personal request, not as a mod, wouldn't it be more appropriate for you to respond in the forum in question rather than responding here to a thread on a different site?


And yes a lot of the people over on the other forum do bother me, that forum really went to hell and unfortunately a lot of the nice/knowledgable people have left or visit far less often..
Joel
As I said above, I found a bit of humor in a less than moderate moderator... It would not have been understood in the other forum because few would know you were a moderator on this one...(I did not) so why post it there? Obviously it was not even understood here.
-gus-


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01-25-2008, 11:48 AM   #27
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Pretty soon one will have to take a driving test to operate one of these beasts, I am getting a bit tired of all the over featured DSLR's. I would suggest most of us don't use half of them.

One thing I do know, my two year old Sony R1's image quality is stunning and beats my K10d and Minolta 7D hands down in this area. Also comes real close to the top of the line Canon and Nikon DSLR's for image quality.

Can it do all a DSLR can do "No" does it need to "No" Does it have "Live View" yes, and I love this feature.

Will I buy the K20D, don't think so. Do I like my K10D, yes very much so. It has more than enough buttons, dials and menu options to satisfy my old brain.

RG.
01-25-2008, 12:21 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
Of course the K20 is a direct competitor of future upgrades to D80, you just said yourself it wasn't D300 competition so what would it compete against?

Price wise (body only, MSRP): K20D(1200$)<40D ($1300)<A700($1400)<E3($1600)<D300($1800) so yes, it's placed at the bottom of the semi-pro compartment and a bit over its spec sheet but since they have no direct competitior on the segment yet....

But it is supposed to offer some features (on the IQ front) that no other DSLR have and that justify a starting MSRP price higher than the K10 did.

Another thing to note is that the semi-pro prices are a good $200 above K20D, except the excellent 40D that went down in price $300 from the 30D: kuddos to Canon to have been able to do that but do you really think that the upgrade 30D==>40D was more significant than K10D==>K20D?

As for Pentax, they have to recoup their R&D costs before the D90 comes (end of 2008?) and that they might want to bring the price to a more friendly $999 body only in 2009.
I find it interesting that so many folks (not you, lol101) place the somewhat better AF and FPS specs of some other brands above IQ considerations (yes, it remains to be seen if the K20D IQ is as good or better than the more expensive competition) and also completely leave out the fact that the Canon and Nikon cameras have no in-body SR.

Sure, certain features are worth more to one user than another, but in any sort of reasonable weighting of ALL features which also includes price (where Canon and Nikon get a ZERO for in-body SR, which is most certainly not weighted as completely useless to any user) , the K20D is not at all out-classed ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.

In addition, while it might not be the case for the somewhat more advanced users that frequent these forums, many newbies are swayed by MP count much more than you might think. In this case, the high MP count might not be a bad thing if the high ISO IQ is as good as the first sample images seem to indicate, but I have had the MP talk with many folks considering a camera purchase, and they inevitably choose a higher MP camera even if that is not the best choice IQ-wise.

Given the fact that the K20D is at the low end of the mid-range in price, but apparently equal or better in IQ, many people considering a DSLR will choose the higher MP camera, especially if it is significantly cheaper.

It may turn out that Pentax has been quite clever with the placement of this camera in the market.

Ray
01-25-2008, 03:31 PM   #29
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It amazes me how many people are absolutely convinced the AF speed will not be up to par. My experience with the other brands has shown that they may focus quicker, but have a higher miss rate. Granted, with some of the higher end canikon flashes and IR focus help, this improves. But when I throw the flash on my pentax and stop down a bit the dof makes it much easier to get hits anyway. The Pentax can be frustrating in low light when it gets lost, indeed. I'd hazard a guess that the "one shot" or whatever focusing mode that is talked about with the K20 will make it behave much more like what I've experienced with the other brands sub $2000 cameras. (note-haven't tried the D300 yet)

I'm a video pro, so I'm pretty used to manual focus. And we have to have near a 100% hit rate AT 30fps! So all this whining about autofocus kinda cracks me up. We have some really long glass too, and at F 1.2 as well.
If a $100,000 video camera with an $80,000 lens can't be made with pro auto-focus at 30fps, I don't really expect still camera's at $1200 with $800 lens to do it at 3fps. Especially when you consider how much BETTER you have to hit focus at huge megapixels.
01-25-2008, 06:06 PM   #30
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Why do I always hear the mantra that people do not care about IQ if they choose some other brand than Pentax?

I applaud Pentax for making the choice of IQ over speed, but they certainly do not have a stranglehold on image quality. Other brands are just as good, otherwise they'd be dead in the water already. I certainly can't fault people who probably need the speed for the shooting they do, but that doesn't make them less caring about the image quality when they chose another brand.

Here's the deal: any DSLR today (even one generation ago) is capable of producing great pictures. The battle's being fought on features now, otherwise Pentax didn't try to put in 14MP in their CMOS sensor, which, in itself, is a marketable feature. They figured to differentiate themselves on MP count and not speed, and now they have a weapon to use when comparing spec sheets.

For all the whiners about people not needing faster AF and higher FPS count, there are also those who think that high ISO performance isn't needed by a lot of people. Different strokes for different folks.

I just wish we're all rational and understanding.
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