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01-24-2008, 06:00 PM   #1
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things are getting ugly around here...

maybe it's just me.

why is posting an opinion of disappointment on the K20Ds specs, justification for being gang bashed by others here?

bash away but, FPS is something to have 'in case'. for some people, it's not there for every second the camera is on, it's there 'in case'. if it's not there, then you're screwed at that moment if/when you could have used it.

screen size/res - nikon give you a bigger/tempered glass/colour calibrated/high res screen. so that's the benchmark. that's where the bar is. it's technologically doable. and it makes it possible to judge image sharpness quickly, without having to enlarge the shot on the lcd. for me, this is the baddest news.

all the new user interface/software/B&W/quality options - just get in the way... but much of it's needed to get the camera setup in the first place, and reveiwers will eat it up, so that's a tick.

price? total bargain. punching above it's weight, as usual. zero complaint.

iq - at the end of the day, ben k is on the payroll, but he has pride in his reputation, which you have to admit, is deserved - so it's a fair enough bet that the images will all be set to stun - which is why, personally at least, i'll buy it sight unseen, as soon as it's available. and because the glass is what counts, and pentax glass does it for me - it's what's in the print, not the monitor that makes pentax the no brainer decision - disappointed though i am.

would be nice if we could be nicer to people who are disappointed though...


01-24-2008, 06:08 PM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by 123K10D Quote
[...] ben k is on the payroll [...]
Really. I did not know that. You sure?
01-24-2008, 06:11 PM   #3
and
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When I reflect upon the camera a bit more, it ends up as a k10d with a new sensor basically. The most new features all surround the sensor, lots of the other stuff like customizing etc is just software(firmware) changes. maybe this sensor was meant to be in the k10d, just wasnt finished. I think it should be better than the k10d, it has some changes to the better and the rest is the same, so no real loss. and for a 1 year upgrade its impressive.

I did feel disappointed though, one thing is features I had been hoping for like higher flash sync (where petnax was already behind the competition) no new buttons (wb button etc) no new grip with af button or new features in it like gps, wifi, ethernet etc. But fair eanough.

I think why some are more disappointed is because when I heard some of the rumors and hints it sounded like the camera was very fast, meaning new af and more fps. I feel this was being hinted to... The camera makes sense because I remember a saying that pentax was aimed at landscape and portrait photographers, not sports and journalists. so its a 1Ds (more mp, less fps) and not a 1D (less mp more fps). and looking at the lens selection and traditions I dont think pentax is ever going to do a 1D type camera. we might see maybe 5 fps in the next model though.
01-24-2008, 10:24 PM   #4
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As a retired E.E. who spent the last half of my career in consumer electronics this is the way I see it.

The K20D is an evolutionary step in the design of this series. They needed to improve IQ as they were being bashed over the head for so-so jpgs out of the camera, remember? I'm sure their new partner Samsung came to them and told them their new CMOS sensor would be a BIG sales builder.

I'm sure they've been working on getting yields up to par on the new CMOS sensor over the last year in order to support the sales they expect. I don't think they had enough resources to upgrade too many parts of the camera so they fix the 'biggy' first, the sensor.

1. If you want faster sync or higher shutter speed you have to redesign the mirror box and shutter and supporting electronics.

2. If you want more FPS you have to design in a new image processor and data pipelines and more buffer memory. (and do #1) (and possibly a new sensor that can be read out at the higher speed)

To do all this in one year would have pushed the cost of the new camera up significantly.

So what do you do? You use what resources you have and make incremental improvements to the design. I look for more improvements by the end of the year or sooner.

Maybe a K20D Super?

Anyone willing to venture a guess at the relative sizes of the design engineering departments at P C & N?

01-24-2008, 10:29 PM   #5
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To put things into to perspective on the amount of money Pentax is able to spend on R&D let;s look at how much they made last year....

About 1/3 of Canon's Advertising money from last year was Pentax's yearly revenue for the last sales numbers. This is a high estimate as you can consider part of Canon's deal with the NFL on this statistic as well, but not sure if it was included.

Just to let you knwo this is rough guess and would love the real numbers but couldn't find them all online.
01-24-2008, 10:44 PM   #6
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QuoteQuote:
.

They needed to improve IQ as they were being bashed over the head for so-so jpgs out of the camera, remember?
This was due to the apparent reluctance of the reviewer to make the in-camera adjustments they said were possible which produced more pleasing images. They put adjustable settings there for a reason.
01-24-2008, 11:05 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
To put things into to perspective on the amount of money Pentax is able to spend on R&D let;s look at how much they made last year....

About 1/3 of Canon's Advertising money from last year was Pentax's yearly revenue for the last sales numbers. .
Exactly, but everyone expects so much from them..

To OP, I can't speak for others, I just get frustrated with the doomsday prediction complainers as this happened with the DS, K100d and K10d and each time sales grew.. I also dislike being called the arteest type or fanboy as I didn't care about FPS for example.

People are welcome to express their dissapointment but over at the 'other forum' anyone who dares to mention they like the specs and didn't need x or y feature are also attacked by the unhappy crowd and called fanboys or alike. Not really fair either.. So it kind of works both ways, and is wrong both ways. This kind of thing is expected though, and will settle down soon enough..

I do think Pentax this time, if the IQ lives up to the hype, have made a camera Phil will love as IQ seems to be the only factor that matters in those reviews, and to much of the market.. Maybe if this approach works and the sales shoot up they will have more R&D funds for the other features, I doubt they have the money to do too much at once..

Last edited by joele; 01-24-2008 at 11:10 PM.
01-24-2008, 11:26 PM   #8
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QuoteQuote:
I did feel disappointed though, one thing is features I had been hoping for like higher flash sync (where petnax was already behind the competition) no new buttons (wb button etc) no new grip with af button or new features in it like gps, wifi, ethernet etc. But fair eanough.
Well, we all felt victims to our own overexcitement about new models BEFORE we actually knew anything. Remember the last month! This forum crawled with people, who made guesses about new Pentaxes, said that "They should include this, they should improve that". What we got in the end? More and more guesses formed a vision of a SUPER camera, and we expected IT to come to life.

But this is a real life, nothing IDEAL exists. Nothing at all. And it's only natural, that the new K20D is not that ideal super camera that we came to expect.

I am among lucky ones, who got what was really wanted by them. I don't care about FPS, and I like current AF, so why ask for more. However new camera's IQ IS fantastic (at leat as long as I've seen), and that's what REALLY counts for me.

So what do we got in the end? A camera for people, demanding picture quality, good colors.
And a camera NOT for reporters, who need super fast AF and 5-7 FPS. Simple enough. So no point to argue about what Pentax did right and what they did wrong. They did what they did, it's almost here, you cannot change it, so please, dont bush anyone who loves it/don't loves it.

My personal opinion - Pentax made critical update, after all sensor is what produces the picture.

01-24-2008, 11:38 PM   #9
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In my opinion, this K20D is far more than just a k10d with an updated sensor. Check out the side by side numbers and features and compare what the k20D offers that the k10D does not and this is why I say what I say.

Like some of these posts have mentioned, this camera was uber-hyped by fantasy "wish-list" type of message boarding (not just here, but on other forums as well) over the past month and I think people were falsely expecting this thing to the the camera that puts every other camera ever put on the market to shame, in the dust, etc...I mean really, was anyone honestly expecting that in reality? In short, I think Pentax has definitely made a step in a positive direction and the evolution of the Pentax line continues. Afterall, there will most likely be another one in the pipe by this time next year, if not already on the drawing boards as I am typing this.

Jas
01-25-2008, 12:05 AM   #10
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Though it may not have pleased everyone, FWIW, I feel Pentax was very, very clever with the K20. They were asked to improve their profitability by Hoya, and the K20 is just the ticket. Some of us feared a drop in quality, but not only have they given us a class leading, custom sensor, they kept everything that was great about the K10, including the whole chassis. So the body is still best in class, cost them basically nothing to design for the K20, and we can still use our existing grip/batts/accesories. Pentax have given enough of an upgrade that the K20 will continue to grow the brand and will do so with less overhead, which helps to ensure a long future for them (and our K collections!)
01-25-2008, 12:50 AM   #11
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Oh my goodness...I am smiling

I just realized that you are a moderator on this forum. I had read a few of your posts in the other forum and thought to myself, wow this guy is gettin hot under the collar... You are so 'not' moderate over on that forum, but over here you are a Moderater? 8^)
some edits
Poor you.... "this camera is not designed for you. Get over it"

"I have just been thinking about your laughable analogy"

"Less radiculous as people flamming others for not caring about a feature they don't use?"

All out of context but the "tone" is accurate none the less.


Thank goodness for freedom of speech and ideas...
I guess this debate has even got the moderates dander up... haha

No point to this except I had just left that forum and came here and saw this one. I thought it was funny. No charactor attack intended at all. It just a play on the word moderator

QuoteOriginally posted by joele Quote
Exactly, but everyone expects so much from them..

To OP, I can't speak for others, I just get frustrated with the doomsday prediction complainers as this happened with the DS, K100d and K10d and each time sales grew.. I also dislike being called the arteest type or fanboy as I didn't care about FPS for example.

People are welcome to express their dissapointment but over at the 'other forum' anyone who dares to mention they like the specs and didn't need x or y feature are also attacked by the unhappy crowd and called fanboys or alike. Not really fair either.. So it kind of works both ways, and is wrong both ways. This kind of thing is expected though, and will settle down soon enough..

I do think Pentax this time, if the IQ lives up to the hype, have made a camera Phil will love as IQ seems to be the only factor that matters in those reviews, and to much of the market.. Maybe if this approach works and the sales shoot up they will have more R&D funds for the other features, I doubt they have the money to do too much at once..
01-25-2008, 01:32 AM   #12
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Well, I'm only "disappointed" because all the hype. In fact, I was hoping it'll be faster than K10D; instead... what's with that crappy burst mode?
The camera itself looks good; but at this price, it'll have a difficult time 'stealing' customers from the faster 40D and A700. Maybe the 14.6MP will do the trick, and the price will surely fall.
About the image quality, I'm not sure it'll be much different than, let's say, the Sony 12MP sensor. After all this, I'm afraid I can't believe a certain person who compared it to a Hasselblad (yes, your contributions are very much appreciated, but please don't exaggerate like that!). But it looks good, and for that certain person I'm sure it'll be an excellent, maybe even the best tool.
Let's hope in the (not so far) future Pentax will give us a faster camera, with (much) better AF and a decent FPS rate. There is no point in bashing Pentax for not being able to do it in K20D, nor to bash those who'd like a faster camera.
01-25-2008, 01:43 AM   #13
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Kunzite and all of you who are not happy with the 21fps - you are overreacting.
For a web gallery is more than enough!

For small prints is very much enough too, you can print at 10x15 cm at 300 DPI !

You can also print 30x20 cm at 150 dpi - this is not that bad - and consider the image at this size is extremely sharp and no noise at all. You can bring it easily at 6 megapixels with a smart software like SSpline and printed at a normal size it will almost be as a real thing.
01-25-2008, 01:44 AM   #14
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..............

QuoteOriginally posted by 123K10D Quote
maybe it's just me.

why is posting an opinion of disappointment on the K20Ds specs, justification for being gang bashed by others here?

bash away but, FPS is something to have 'in case'. for some people, it's not there for every second the camera is on, it's there 'in case'. if it's not there, then you're screwed at that moment if/when you could have used it.

screen size/res - nikon give you a bigger/tempered glass/colour calibrated/high res screen. so that's the benchmark. that's where the bar is. it's technologically doable. and it makes it possible to judge image sharpness quickly, without having to enlarge the shot on the lcd. for me, this is the baddest news.

all the new user interface/software/B&W/quality options - just get in the way... but much of it's needed to get the camera setup in the first place, and reveiwers will eat it up, so that's a tick.

price? total bargain. punching above it's weight, as usual. zero complaint.

iq - at the end of the day, ben k is on the payroll, but he has pride in his reputation, which you have to admit, is deserved - so it's a fair enough bet that the images will all be set to stun - which is why, personally at least, i'll buy it sight unseen, as soon as it's available. and because the glass is what counts, and pentax glass does it for me - it's what's in the print, not the monitor that makes pentax the no brainer decision - disappointed though i am.

would be nice if we could be nicer to people who are disappointed though...
Just one more time..I am not on the Pentax Payroll.

The images I took were "Snap Shots" while in the apartment and on the street a couple of days before the press conference.

I am just another Photographer/CD who happens to have the opportunity to be sponsored by and not employed by Pentax. If their gear wasn't up to the standards I require, I wouldn't be here. I would be using something else.

Ben
01-25-2008, 02:04 AM   #15
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Raz, maybe some people would find the burst thingie somewhat useful. I don't. It's not a replacement to "the real thing", e.g. a faster mirror&processing.
However, I must say I don't shoot bursts and I'm quite happy with "only" 3 fps. In fact, I think I'd appreciate more a whisper-quiet SLR than a high fps-one. OTOH, faster AF is always good to have (there are some new tricks on the K20D, let's see how they work).
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