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07-13-2012, 10:54 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well this was global marketshares in 2010:



.
Hm... Pentax is only doing slightly better than vivitar.... cameras most often found in small convenient stores ...

07-13-2012, 11:45 AM   #62
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Well, I'm fed up with Pentax - I'm jumping ship, now, to a brand which performs better.
Where can I buy a Casio or a Kodak DSLR? I'd also like to buy some Kodak stock, if they're so much better than Pentax it must be the real deal! Yeah, I'll put all my money on them, I'll be rich in no time!
07-13-2012, 11:49 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well this was global marketshares in 2010:



So the 6,5 % in Japan even looks good. I think Ricoh only had a few tends of percents marketshare.

Doubling in 2013 isn't impossible. Growing marketshare is one thing and increasing average revenue for each item is another way to grow. Sell less el cheapo P&S and a few more FF camera's.
Global market shaire of what? All cameras? Compacts? DSLRs? By unit sales? By turnover? This doesn't tell us much on its own.
07-13-2012, 12:29 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Global market shaire of what? All cameras? Compacts? DSLRs? By unit sales? By turnover? This doesn't tell us much on its own.
It tells us that big pieces of pie are cherry, peach, lemon, and blueberry. It also tells us that Pentax pie is blackberry, but not very filling.


Last edited by lammie200; 07-13-2012 at 12:38 PM.
07-13-2012, 12:34 PM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Global market shaire of what? All cameras? Compacts? DSLRs? By unit sales? By turnover? This doesn't tell us much on its own.
All cameras by unit sales, i.e. compacts because DSLRs sells in much lower numbers.
07-13-2012, 12:38 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Global market shaire of what? All cameras? Compacts? DSLRs? By unit sales? By turnover? This doesn't tell us much on its own.
unit sales:

Digitalkameras: Sony ist Canon dicht auf den Fersen | photoscala


This was 2006:
Total camera market:


DSLR:


And some info with numbers: http://www.photoscala.de/node/3097

This a very funny (or tragic) article from october first 2006:
http://www.photoscala.de/node/2249

QuoteQuote:
Pentax wäre wohl gut beraten, Kräfte und Gelder lieber in die Entwicklung weiterer digitaler Kameras mit Kleinbild-Formfaktor - etwa in eine K1D - zu investieren.
It would be best when Pentax would put money and knowledge in the designing off a next generation digital camera with a Full Frame sensor (a K1D).

Last edited by RonHendriks1966; 07-13-2012 at 01:04 PM.
07-13-2012, 12:43 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
So, if they are comparing the same data sets in each of the two years, 2006 & 2010, Panasonic made a HUGE jump from 1% to 7.6%. They have had some rather strong entries in the Travel-Super-Zoom P&S category as well as a few other strong performers - before they entered the Mirrorless craze full throttle. They currently have the most popular P&S at Amazon and several on the Top 10 too. Wonder if there is anything about how they have gone about increasing market share that Pentax-Ricoh could learn from?
07-13-2012, 12:51 PM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
Wonder if there is anything about how they have gone about increasing market share that Pentax-Ricoh could learn from?
I think they moved from camera-stores to home-appliances stores next to the washingmachine, coffeemaker and the breadmaker. The same goes on for Samsung.

Added a new graph, since the 2006 where dslr-only and added global market all camera-types.


Last edited by RonHendriks1966; 07-13-2012 at 01:05 PM.
07-13-2012, 12:54 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
I think they moved from camera-stores to home-appliances stores next to the washingmachine, coffeemaker and the breadmaker. The same goes on for Samsung.
Well, it worked!
07-13-2012, 01:19 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
So, if they are comparing the same data sets in each of the two years, 2006 & 2010, Panasonic made a HUGE jump from 1% to 7.6%. They have had some rather strong entries in the Travel-Super-Zoom P&S category as well as a few other strong performers - before they entered the Mirrorless craze full throttle. They currently have the most popular P&S at Amazon and several on the Top 10 too. Wonder if there is anything about how they have gone about increasing market share that Pentax-Ricoh could learn from?
Well here's one way:

London 2012 Olympic Games - Panasonic UK & Ireland

But then it's easier to spend really big money if you are really big and are already well known for other consumer electronics. I've just seen an ad on TV here offering one of their TZ compacts as the camera for the Olympics games, etc. I've never seen a Ricoh or Pentax TV ad and don't really expect to. And imho part of Panny's success is designing good cameras that are exactly what folks want, so their rep now, justified or otherwise, is that Panny produce cameras that are above the average and which are a good, safe bet. There's no substitute for getting the product spot on. Pentax did that with the K5 and it sounds as if they have with the K30. But I don't think anyone would really say that of the Q or the K-01 (nice though it is - I have one). Perhaps fewer strange experiments and more precise, carefully targeted hits??

RonHendriks1966, thanks for explaining those figures. It's the DSLR share that's the key for Pentax, not the whole camera market, I guess - that and its profitability.

Last edited by mecrox; 07-13-2012 at 01:24 PM.
07-13-2012, 01:24 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Well here's one way:

London 2012 Olympic Games - Panasonic UK & Ireland

But then it's easier to spend really big money if you are really big and are already well known for other consumer electronics. I've just seen an ad on TV here offering one of their TZ compacts as the camera for the Olympics games, etc. I've never seen a Ricoh or Pentax TV ad and don't really expect to. And imho part of Panny's success is designing good cameras that are exactly what folks want, so their rep now, justified or otherwise, is that Panny produce cameras that are well above the average and which are a good, safe bet. There's no substitute for getting the product spot on. Pentax did that with the K5 and it sounds as if they have with the K30. But I don't think anyone would really say that of the Q or the K-01 (nice though it is - I have one). Perhaps fewer strange experiments and more precise, carefully targeted hits??
I agree. I own a Panasonic P&S now, it's a lovely camera with everything I need for quick shots out of my shirt pocket. I used to like Sony P&S cameras and owned several but in 2010 they went very soft with their P&S cameras and didn't have the reach of the Travel-Super-Zooms so I went to Panasonic and am very happy. The only thing that might tempt me away is one with those features and RAW capability.

As for Pentax and TV, have you seen the production of the TV ad that was posted in several of the K-30 threads?
07-14-2012, 07:44 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by alamo5000 Quote
A little bit of homework on the web---

2011 was the first time since the merger with Hoya that Pentax turned a profit. It was due to the Kx models and the K-5 models being a huge hit. So Hoya owned a company that lost money 4 out of the 5 years that it was owned. I am specifically referring to just the Pentax portion of of the Hoya corporation.

Hoya was losing money owning Pentax.

Ricoh is substantially larger than Hoya in terms of revenue. This is a good thing. It means under Ricoh Pentax will no longer be starved for cash. They can get bigger budgets and develop better products.

Pentax has proven it can be profitable, and did so in 2011... together the Kx and K-5 sales = Pentax turned a profit.

In 2011 Pentax SLR sales increased year over year by 30%. Their other cameras increased only 13%.

From the looks of it the Kx was a huge hit---as was the K-5---and hence the new K30 is trying to be a hybrid K-5 and Kx. Function with a lot of choice of colors and all that jive.... too bad I like my camera in one color (black).

To me the strategy is weak--but it was all Hoya could pull off because of a lack of cash to be able to dedicate to the brand. Basically from the looks of it Hoya got in over it's head in a business that needs cash to make cash...and they didn't have enough money to successfully develop products.

After reading through the annual reports of Hoya and Ricoh I don't see any reason whatsoever to be anything but optimistic about Pentax DSLRs. The DSLR market is where Pentax made its profit...I would venture to say that over the past 5 years Pentax was losing money in its point and shoot segment...

I would not be a bit surprised if Pentax point and shoots went away or were rebranded...but I also see Ricoh having a laser focus on the DSLR market, which is where the money maker is. I also see them as being substantially more able to dedicate much more money to development.

After reading up Pentax has been suffering from serious under funding and having too broad of a range, ie jack of all trades, master of none...but with that they stumbled upon the fact that a lot of Japanese consumers like all the colorful cameras...and that a lot of people also like performance (K-5)...

The tail was wagging the dog from the looks of it... but I believe with the larger ownership the dog will start wagging the tail.

Again, my reading made me even more optimistic about Pentax (DSLR) cameras...

The wild card here though is the 'hot thing' is mirrorless cameras...apparently mirrorless cameras with interchangeable lenses are the real winners... would not be surprised to see Pentax models of mirrorless cameras too...

(FYI-I have not done a full study of this... I only pieced together a little bit of information... at a glance and posted my initial reactions...)
Hmmm.... Ricoh's turnover was more than 4X Hoya's in 2010, yet Hoya made more than 30% more profit than Ricoh...
07-14-2012, 07:49 AM   #73
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Yeah, cameras sold is kind of a bullshit number to go by anyways, if you think about it. At my Best Buy, we sell Olympus, Fuji, Nikon, Sony and Canon all in store. The one that gets returned, time and again, is Sony. Not because we sell a lot of them, but because people just don't like them. Check out an open item section at a Best Buy near you, it may be the same case as our store where 8/10 items on that shelf are from Sony. People just do not like them.

At one point, I had three open item Sony Nex cameras. One 5N, One C3, and One F3. Yeah Sony may be more successful, but people just don't like their cameras.
07-14-2012, 07:49 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by alamo5000 Quote
I don't know the history, but seems to me like Hoya is a poorly managed company overall. It shows in their numbers, what little I read...

If the Hoya takeover was hostile that's even more reason to rejoice regarding Ricoh. Hostiles rarely work out well---
"what little I read..." sums that up nicely.
07-14-2012, 08:22 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
well no guarantee the V will be apsc or m4/3 but the lens patents do lend credence to it (I see no need for 2 more 28mm mountors on the GXR, though a sensor upgrade would always be good)
Well, Sony now being in the m4/3 sensor game does open things up a bit.

But I would wonder how many sensor sizes PRIC (love that acronym!) could feasibly support.

I would see these 4 sensor sizes as the winners in the camera business (not phone business) over the next 5 years:

- 1" for compacts. Smaller sensors will be dominated by phones
- APS-C for enthusiasts because it's a full two stops ahead of 1" and provides tangible improvements (m4/3 is a tweener between the 1" and APS-C and will eventually be absorbed at both ends). << Ducks>>
- FF. Only one stop ahead of APS-C, but the very-much-alive-mindset, legacy glass and ever-cheaper sensors will make it practical for a larger demographic.
- MF (true MF, not cropped 645D MF). For the same reasons (to a lesser degree) as FF above. I would be very surprised if Sony weren't working on MF sensors right now.

But sensors are just part of the story. Mounts are another. And companies are one more.

How many mounts and companies will weather the storms ahead?

If I have to put one in the gun sight right now, it's Nikon 1. Bye bye. Though Nikon will probably hang in there a while.

If the Q lenses can't accept a 1" sensor, bye too. Pentax won't hang in there long with the Q mount if this can't be profitable.

m4/3? Bye also. Being only 1 stop ahead of a shirt-pocket camera like the RX100 doesn't bode well. The enthusiasm of those invested in the system, plus Panasonic's deep pockets will keep this going for a while, but it's a dead end. Who, at let's face it, the lower-end of the market, buys into an expensive lens system for one stop? 1 month ago it was more viable, but the introduction of the RX100 has changed everything. And no surprise either. Me and many others have been saying for years that the camera market is being eaten at both ends.

The cheap is getting better, and the better is getting cheaper.

Last edited by Unsinkable II; 07-14-2012 at 08:36 AM.
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