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07-14-2012, 01:55 PM   #76
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07-14-2012, 04:22 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by Unsinkable II Quote
Hmmm.... Ricoh's turnover was more than 4X Hoya's in 2010, yet Hoya made more than 30% more profit than Ricoh...

They are in entirely different segments. Completely and totally different segments.

"Hoya is a Japanese multinational company and the leading supplier of innovative precision products based on its optics technologies. Hoya is active in the fields of Life Care and Information Technology providing eyeglasses, medical endoscopic system, intraocular lenses, optical lenses as well as key components for the semiconductor devices, LCD panels and HDDs."

Ricoh on the other hand is a much more retail type of company. They make copiers, printers, and other office products and things that are sold to the mass market, whereas Hoya sells stuff to specialized industries. Its two different, entirely different things.

Its comparing apples and oranges. One is in a higher (much higher) margin business and has substantial exposure to the medical field which is why they even took over Pentax to start with from what I can tell...they were trying to apply the imaging segment to their medical division, and IMO didn't really care all that much about consumer products such as cameras. Ricoh on the other hand is at the mercy of the broader retail level economy.

But when it comes to selling cameras in a retail environment who is going to be better? There is no comparison.

So Ricoh has a lot more revenue, but overall profit margins in Hoya were higher.

Hoya's ADR's were are selling for US $22.11 today with a market cap of $9.54B,

Ricoh's ADR's were are selling for US $37.24 today with a market cap of $5.40B

Ricoh Co Ltd (ADR): OTC:RICOY quotes & news - Google Finance


HOYA CORPORATION (ADR): PINK:HOCPY quotes & news - Google Finance




QuoteOriginally posted by Unsinkable II Quote
"what little I read..." sums that up nicely.
Now if you want to try and be a jackass we can play that too.

In the end the strategic view of the company "Pentax" will change drastically...

You have a company that primarily specialized in 'science and medical' that took over a camera company to exploit their 'optics' for that purpose....and retail selling isn't in their DNA....

NOW they are taken over by a company where they are PRIMARILY a retail type company, retail being defined as selling to mass markets of small to big businesses and even on to consumer level products.

In my opinion it won't even be close. As far as cameras go Pentax has been sorely mismanaged for the last several years.

I don't see any reason why anyone should be anything but excited by the take over by Ricoh. They are infinitely more superior to Hoya for the things we here are after. Everything from marketing and sales channels on to producing consumer level products... its not even close...

The two companies are playing two different games...

Last edited by alamo5000; 07-14-2012 at 04:38 PM.
07-14-2012, 04:49 PM   #78
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Now, I am even considering a buy of the Ricoh ADR's...

WHY?

Based on the chart above if you look at Ricoh's ADR price...if you look at a 10 year period....

Ricoh was trading between $80-$115 a share all the way up until Q3 of 2008. Which coinciencially was when the world economy tanked.

NOW, they are trading at $37.24... for a company that has been around since 1936...and who at present aren't making a killing... BUT dependent on an economic recovery stand to make huge leaps. One could easily double your money in the process, or more...depending on an economic recovery of course...

Its worth a look for sure. I might buy in just for that purpose alone.

Ricoh is more like a bank stock... kind of like GE... slow and steady she goes...

Hoya is more of a medical technology company with some side shows thrown in there.

I would say Ricoh is a relatively safe bet. Not a 'huge killer' in the returns department but in this market... sheez I will take this opportunity and bank it.

Not only are they down, but they have huge potential to go UP...and now they have a whole new world open to them where they weren't a player before...the DSLR market can make Ricoh's bottom line jump. A LOT.

If/when that recovery comes.... I see the realistic view that one could triple their money on Ricoh stock, dependent on the hopefully soon to come economic recovery...

All we have to pray for is that Obama gets smashed like a bug in November....so the recovery can happen...

Last edited by alamo5000; 07-14-2012 at 04:59 PM.
07-14-2012, 07:32 PM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by lammie200 Quote
It tells us that big pieces of pie are cherry, peach, lemon, and blueberry. It also tells us that Pentax pie is blackberry, but not very filling.
Ha ha! Nice.

07-14-2012, 07:34 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by alamo5000 Quote
They are in entirely different segments. Completely and totally different segments.

"Hoya is a Japanese multinational company and the leading supplier of innovative precision products based on its optics technologies. Hoya is active in the fields of Life Care and Information Technology providing eyeglasses, medical endoscopic system, intraocular lenses, optical lenses as well as key components for the semiconductor devices, LCD panels and HDDs."

Ricoh on the other hand is a much more retail type of company. They make copiers, printers, and other office products and things that are sold to the mass market, whereas Hoya sells stuff to specialized industries. Its two different, entirely different things.

Its comparing apples and oranges. One is in a higher (much higher) margin business and has substantial exposure to the medical field which is why they even took over Pentax to start with from what I can tell...they were trying to apply the imaging segment to their medical division, and IMO didn't really care all that much about consumer products such as cameras. Ricoh on the other hand is at the mercy of the broader retail level economy.

But when it comes to selling cameras in a retail environment who is going to be better? There is no comparison.

So Ricoh has a lot more revenue, but overall profit margins in Hoya were higher.

Hoya's ADR's were are selling for US $22.11 today with a market cap of $9.54B,

Ricoh's ADR's were are selling for US $37.24 today with a market cap of $5.40B

Ricoh Co Ltd (ADR): OTC:RICOY quotes & news - Google Finance


HOYA CORPORATION (ADR): PINK:HOCPY quotes & news - Google Finance






Now if you want to try and be a jackass we can play that too.

In the end the strategic view of the company "Pentax" will change drastically...

You have a company that primarily specialized in 'science and medical' that took over a camera company to exploit their 'optics' for that purpose....and retail selling isn't in their DNA....

NOW they are taken over by a company where they are PRIMARILY a retail type company, retail being defined as selling to mass markets of small to big businesses and even on to consumer level products.

In my opinion it won't even be close. As far as cameras go Pentax has been sorely mismanaged for the last several years.

I don't see any reason why anyone should be anything but excited by the take over by Ricoh. They are infinitely more superior to Hoya for the things we here are after. Everything from marketing and sales channels on to producing consumer level products... its not even close...

The two companies are playing two different games...
Yes, they are in different segments. Thank you for pointing that out, Captain Obvious.

Ricoh is also not "PRIMARILY (your caps) a retail type company".

Ricoh is primarily a B2B type company.

"Infinitely more superior". You're cracking me up!
07-14-2012, 07:54 PM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by alamo5000 Quote
Now, I am even considering a buy of the Ricoh ADR's...

WHY?

Based on the chart above if you look at Ricoh's ADR price...if you look at a 10 year period....

Ricoh was trading between $80-$115 a share all the way up until Q3 of 2008. Which coinciencially was when the world economy tanked.
I don't see any coincidence.

QuoteOriginally posted by alamo5000 Quote
NOW, they are trading at $37.24... for a company that has been around since 1936...and who at present aren't making a killing... BUT dependent on an economic recovery stand to make huge leaps. One could easily double your money in the process, or more...depending on an economic recovery of course...
Don't hold your breath for big up-tick. Sadly those days are gone. We need big productivity gains. They can come from cheap energy and/or technology, probably the latter providing the former. That's a while away.

QuoteOriginally posted by alamo5000 Quote
Its worth a look for sure. I might buy in just for that purpose alone.

Ricoh is more like a bank stock... kind of like GE... slow and steady she goes...

Hoya is more of a medical technology company with some side shows thrown in there.

I would say Ricoh is a relatively safe bet. Not a 'huge killer' in the returns department but in this market... sheez I will take this opportunity and bank it.
You have it backwards. I have nothing against Ricoh. They look a very well managed company. However, they are playing in a "sunset business". Document duplication is decreasing as we become ever more paperless. The 150 gram, 5mm thick tablets of tomorrow will only accelerate that. The flexible 1mm thick displays of the future will all but kill it.

I would run away from investing in a $20B company with sub 2% margins that makes most of its turnover in a declining and ultimately doomed business.

Hoya, on the other hand, are in an expanding segment. There are more old people, with more money, than ever before. And the tide has just started to rise. Anything to do with improving health and improving quality of older life is probably the most bankable investment going right now.

QuoteOriginally posted by alamo5000 Quote
Not only are they down, but they have huge potential to go UP...and now they have a whole new world open to them where they weren't a player before...the DSLR market can make Ricoh's bottom line jump. A LOT.
Couldn't disagree more.

QuoteOriginally posted by alamo5000 Quote
If/when that recovery comes.... I see the realistic view that one could triple their money on Ricoh stock, dependent on the hopefully soon to come economic recovery...
Triple? Good luck with that.

QuoteOriginally posted by alamo5000 Quote
All we have to pray for is that Obama gets smashed like a bug in November....so the recovery can happen...
"gets smashed like a bug"??

How old are you? Are you a child? I ask this seriously. My 8 year old son likes to play on Draw Something, and I would guess a lot of the people he plays with don't know he's 8. It feels the same here.
07-14-2012, 08:02 PM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by lammie200 Quote
It tells us that big pieces of pie are cherry, peach, lemon, and blueberry. It also tells us that Pentax pie is blackberry, but not very filling.
Lol! Reminds me of this...

07-14-2012, 08:07 PM   #83
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And talking of Pie Charts, if you haven't yet seen this, it's a very funny read:

"It's like twitter. Except we charge people to use it."


Here's the first Pie Chart from the piece:



07-14-2012, 09:06 PM   #84
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Are we arguing that a firm cannot be B2B selling to businesses at retail? Unsinkable, I think you've wandered off track there. But I agree with most of the rest so I'll leave it at that.
07-14-2012, 11:17 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by Unsinkable II Quote
I don't give a fig whether Pentax made money or not. That's not what we're discussing.

YOU said:

"Ricoh is substantially larger than Hoya in terms of revenue. This is a good thing. It means under Ricoh Pentax will no longer be starved for cash. They can get bigger budgets and develop better products."

That is wrong. Hoya makes more money than Ricoh.
Whether or not they make more money overall is irrelevant. That is irrelevant. Ricoh has money to invest as they are not bankrupt, its just how they choose to invest it and on developing what. I am saying Ricoh stands a much better chance of allocating investment dollars into the DSLR and retail camera market....


"In December 2006, Pentax started the process of merging with Hoya Corporation to form 'Hoya Pentax HD Corporation'.Hoya's primary goal was to strengthen its medical-related business by taking advantage of Pentax's technologies and expertise in the field of endoscopes, intraocular lenses, surgical loupes, biocompatible ceramics, etc. It was speculated that Pentax's camera business could be sold off after the merger."

Hence as it applies to us, Pentax CAMERAS were starved of cash because that is not how HOYA was using Pentax.

As it appears NOW though the primary goal will not be to strip out other technologies and then have 'a camera division left over'.... the camera division will be the center of attention....the above paragraph about 'selling off Pentax's camera division after the the merger' has seemingly come to fruition...finally, after finding a good suitable match.

Once again, two entirely different strategies.... Hoya had little to no interest in investing in consumer level Pentax gear... maybe 'some' but that wasn't their primary goal in the big picture...

Under Ricoh, from all appearances sake that IS going to be the goal... with that in mind its not a large leap to say or believe that Ricoh will invest more money into Pentax developing more retail products....More lenses, more cameras.... more whatever....

And from the sounds of it Hoya retained some parts of "Pentax" or at least the technology....

HOYA CORPORATION

From all appearances sake (and we don't have all the information)---Pentax has been stripped down to a camera company, and that part is the part that was sold....again from appearances sake only....

The actual retail camera division was seemingly second fiddle to Hoya....but that is what WE are all here for... now under Ricoh its a game changer....

What you are not getting is that you seeming think that Pentax started out as a one trick pony company. IE They make cameras and thats it.... but not true. They 'had' a whole list of other imaging stuff that they did too, not related to your DSLR or point and shoot... they were a conglomerate of different optical products....

So Hoya bought them to get at the stuff they were interested in... then sold off the rest...NOW Pentax might be more of a camera only company... but before... they had a whole line of stuff related and not related to photography as we discuss here on this board...

Last edited by alamo5000; 07-14-2012 at 11:33 PM.
07-15-2012, 12:12 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by alamo5000 Quote
What you are not getting is that you seeming think that Pentax started out as a one trick pony company. IE They make cameras and thats it.... but not true. They 'had' a whole list of other imaging stuff that they did too, not related to your DSLR or point and shoot... they were a conglomerate of different optical products....

So Hoya bought them to get at the stuff they were interested in... then sold off the rest...NOW Pentax might be more of a camera only company... but before... they had a whole line of stuff related and not related to photography as we discuss here on this board...
When did I say that? I am very aware that Hoya Pentax make items such as endoscopes etc. Much like Olympus, though it's been said that Oly run a better ship on that side of things.
07-15-2012, 09:17 AM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by alamo5000 Quote
with that in mind its not a large leap to say or believe that Ricoh will invest more money into Pentax developing more retail products....More lenses, more cameras.... more whatever....

And from the sounds of it Hoya retained some parts of "Pentax" or at least the technology....

HOYA CORPORATION

From all appearances sake (and we don't have all the information)---Pentax has been stripped down to a camera company, and that part is the part that was sold....again from appearances sake only...
Not a large leap at all. If anything, it was stripped down to even less of a camera division than it was before Hoya. Look no further than Ricoh's very first task was to re-hire all the lens engineers Hoya retrenched.

So if there's any question as to how Ricoh would invest in Pentax to grow the camera business, we know already that almost from day one they started investing in people, knowledge and skills.

This scenario alone is enough to tell to anyone that regardless of bottom line figures from those years, the long term viability of Pentax as a camera and lens brand was limited under Hoya but is actually a prospect again under Ricoh - you can't make lenses without lens makers.
07-15-2012, 08:12 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by anthony mazzeri Quote
Not a large leap at all. If anything, it was stripped down to even less of a camera division than it was before Hoya. Look no further than Ricoh's very first task was to re-hire all the lens engineers Hoya retrenched.

So if there's any question as to how Ricoh would invest in Pentax to grow the camera business, we know already that almost from day one they started investing in people, knowledge and skills.

This scenario alone is enough to tell to anyone that regardless of bottom line figures from those years, the long term viability of Pentax as a camera and lens brand was limited under Hoya but is actually a prospect again under Ricoh - you can't make lenses without lens makers.
No doubt. I too think Pentax are better off under Ricoh than Hoya.

Ricoh have more interest, more ambition, more desire than Hoya.

I was pointing out the fallacy of Ricoh being more profitable than Hoya.

Last edited by Unsinkable II; 07-15-2012 at 08:17 PM.
07-17-2012, 01:14 PM   #89
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Pentax Ricoh: no decision made on future of Pentax compacts

"Pentax Ricoh Imaging has said no decision has yet been made about dropping the Pentax name from compact cameras. Japanese newspaper newspaper Asahi Shimbun reported, in a subscriber-only interview with the company's President Noboru Akahane, that the Pentax name would be used only for DSLRs in a subscriber-only interview.

(...)

We approached the company and were told: 'The article is part of a wider interview where many issues were discussed. The product branding approach highlighted by the article is one option that was discussed but the final decision has not been made.''

Source: Digital Photography review Pentax Ricoh: no decision made on future of Pentax compacts : Digital Photography Review
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