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01-25-2008, 09:34 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marcus Quote
Why entry level? A K200D... Lite? How much more simplified could it get? I can't imagine how much more entry level you can get than K200D. If you cut back on features, then it's just the K100D Super or K100D. At a user skill level that's even below the K200D, I can't see why anyone would buy interchangable lenses for the said camera. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

If they're not buying a K200D, then they don't want interchangable lenses. I can't see why someone wouldn't want to buy the K200D if they wanted to expand their photography with Pentax. There shouldn't be anything below amateur. I don't think there's anyone down there who doesn't want a point & shoot.
No sealing, no grip, the DL/DL2 AF unit, limited custom functions, no AF fine tune, etc. Possibly no SR and a much smaller body (A la E-410 or Nikon D40) The K200D comes in solidly at the high-end of the consumer range in most features (other than the crippled buffer)

01-25-2008, 10:24 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by mawz Quote
No sealing, no grip, the DL/DL2 AF unit, limited custom functions, no AF fine tune, etc. Possibly no SR and a much smaller body (A la E-410 or Nikon D40) The K200D comes in solidly at the high-end of the consumer range in most features (other than the crippled buffer)
The high end of 2007's market, not 2008's, it's already struggles to be competitive with Canon's (currently) cheapest body.
01-25-2008, 10:46 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by tcom Quote
The problem is that nobody wants to buy a 6MP camera today. A cheap 10MP camera is needed.
Sure?

I think now's the perfect time for a Sigma DP14 competitor. A small camera with a 6-8mp CMOS sensor with LiveView. Put a Ltd on it and stuff it in your pocket. No need for new AF system or high burst-speeds. Maybe it could even go as high as ISO 12800, considering the new sensor. Street photography king. Sell it for $300 and you're done!
01-25-2008, 10:54 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by CSpronken Quote
The high end of 2007's market, not 2008's, it's already struggles to be competitive with Canon's (currently) cheapest body.
Exactly, the K200D has a very small buffer again after the *ist D's and the K100D's

01-25-2008, 11:24 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by CSpronken Quote
The high end of 2007's market, not 2008's, it's already struggles to be competitive with Canon's (currently) cheapest body.
Canon's cheapest body is the same body that's been their cheapest since the original Digital Rebel/300D was discontinued, ie the XT/350D. And the K200D can quite successfully compete with that in everything except buffer. The new XSi/450D is Canon's high-end consumer body. Also other than the buffer and top ISO selection the K200D matches or beats Sony's brand new A200, which is NOT an entry-level body. The entry level will continue to be the D40 and E-410 for the forseeable future.
01-25-2008, 11:35 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by mawz Quote
Canon's cheapest body is the same body that's been their cheapest since the original Digital Rebel/300D was discontinued, ie the XT/350D. And the K200D can quite successfully compete with that in everything except buffer. The new XSi/450D is Canon's high-end consumer body. Also other than the buffer and top ISO selection the K200D matches or beats Sony's brand new A200, which is NOT an entry-level body. The entry level will continue to be the D40 and E-410 for the forseeable future.
Pro 450D
-Live view with contrast-detect AF
-Much larger buffer (53 JPG vs. 4 JPG!!!)
-Faster fps
-Larger LCD
-More resolution
-Probably better AF

Pro K200D
-Weather sealing
-In body IS
-Better ergonomics
-100,- cheaper

The K200D will struggle especially with Canon's brand name.

Last edited by CSpronken; 01-25-2008 at 11:43 AM.
01-25-2008, 11:37 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by ricardobeat Quote
Sure?
I think now's the perfect time for a Sigma DP14 competitor. A small camera with a 6-8mp CMOS sensor with LiveView. Put a Ltd on it and stuff it in your pocket. No need for new AF system or high burst-speeds. Maybe it could even go as high as ISO 12800, considering the new sensor. Street photography king. Sell it for $300 and you're done!
I dunno if it'd really succeed in the market, but at $300, I'd buy one so fast my credit card wouldn't know what hit it.
01-25-2008, 11:45 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by mawz Quote
No sealing, no grip, the DL/DL2 AF unit, limited custom functions, no AF fine tune, etc. Possibly no SR and a much smaller body (A la E-410 or Nikon D40)
Take away the hot shoe as well. Pop up flash is as entry level as you can get.

Who really would buy this KxxxxD if it would be competiting (at least in the consumer's eye) with the new Rebels and D40s? It would be EASY to upsell first time buyers on saucier features from Canon, Nikon, Olympus, and Sony's competiting cameras. If you take the sauce out of the K200D, and water it down, you have nothing to sell with interchangable lenses. Rebels and D40s will ALWAYS rule at the entry level. To most people, Pentax is just as good as a Bosley DSLR.

Seriously, Pentax needs some television campaigning. Team up with HSN or QVC maybe to sell entry levels. I know the Samsung name would move some units on HSN.

01-25-2008, 01:26 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by ricardobeat Quote
Sure?

I think now's the perfect time for a Sigma DP14 competitor. A small camera with a 6-8mp CMOS sensor with LiveView. Put a Ltd on it and stuff it in your pocket. No need for new AF system or high burst-speeds. Maybe it could even go as high as ISO 12800, considering the new sensor. Street photography king. Sell it for $300 and you're done!
Or an E-410 done right. With a DA 26mm f2 Limited Pancake kit lens. I'd give up SR for a pocketable street camera. Something with the form factor of a SuperProgram. Doesn't need a big LCD, or complex UI, No mode wheel (Just a mode button or even menu). Single wheel design, 3 point AF with software point selection. Heck, if it's got live view, a flip out & reversable LCD a la Epson RD-1 would be nice. Gotta be super-quiet though. And bring back the belt clip as an option.
01-25-2008, 01:29 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marcus Quote
Take away the hot shoe as well. Pop up flash is as entry level as you can get.

Who really would buy this KxxxxD if it would be competiting (at least in the consumer's eye) with the new Rebels and D40s? It would be EASY to upsell first time buyers on saucier features from Canon, Nikon, Olympus, and Sony's competiting cameras. If you take the sauce out of the K200D, and water it down, you have nothing to sell with interchangable lenses. Rebels and D40s will ALWAYS rule at the entry level. To most people, Pentax is just as good as a Bosley DSLR.

Seriously, Pentax needs some television campaigning. Team up with HSN or QVC maybe to sell entry levels. I know the Samsung name would move some units on HSN.
I'm basically describing a D40 with SR here. And you'd be surprised how many D40's sell. Sure some get upsold, but a lot shop merely on price and nothing can touch the D40 at its pricepoint right now(Since K100D Supers are near unfindable). Same price as a decent super-zoom P&S for a DSLR. Pentax can pull a Canon and compete primarily on price at the low-end, which is exactly how cheap film Rebels drove Canon's domination of the AF market in the early-mid 90's.
01-25-2008, 01:34 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by CSpronken Quote
Pro 450D
-Live view with contrast-detect AF
-Much larger buffer (53 JPG vs. 4 JPG!!!)
-Faster fps
-Larger LCD
-More resolution
-Probably better AF

Pro K200D
-Weather sealing
-In body IS
-Better ergonomics
-100,- cheaper

The K200D will struggle especially with Canon's brand name.
Certainly better AF for the 450D, it's an improved version of the 30D's AF unit, which already outperforms SAFOX VIII. And do note the kit lens is the new 18-55 IS, not the old coke-bottle 18-55. The new one is both competitive optically and eliminates some of the allure of in-body IS. And on price, the A200 will beat both, offering an addition $100 off and a competitive buffer (6 RAW with a UDMA CF card extending by as much as an additional 6 shots that due to Sony's incredible write speeds). The Pentax does get DoF preview which both the 450D and A200 lack.
01-25-2008, 02:53 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by mawz Quote
Certainly better AF for the 450D, it's an improved version of the 30D's AF unit, which already outperforms SAFOX VIII. And do note the kit lens is the new 18-55 IS, not the old coke-bottle 18-55. The new one is both competitive optically and eliminates some of the allure of in-body IS.
Yes, very smart move from Canon to add IS to the kit lens. That way they cheaply lure customers to their system with IS and later still charge hefty extras one the more expensive IS lenses.

QuoteOriginally posted by mawz Quote
And on price, the A200 will beat both, offering an addition $100 off and a competitive buffer (6 RAW with a UDMA CF card extending by as much as an additional 6 shots that due to Sony's incredible write speeds). The Pentax does get DoF preview which both the 450D and A200 lack.
True, but not something the average buyer would put high value on.
01-25-2008, 03:32 PM   #58
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I don't think we will see an K2000D type entry level camera from Pentax. It just does not fit into current company policy. Hoya specifically asked for improved profit margin. And an entry camera would only do the opposite.

Sub-$500 to 600 market is very competitive, price is kept low, and there is not much money to be made there - UNLESS it sells loads and loads such as D40. So you only make money on large volume to make up for the lower profit margin. And this would also eat away the current already limited production facility.

Well, unless they can think of an innovative way to reduce manufacturing cost like all plastic body, one chip does all or camera-on-a-chip , it does not look like it is possible or feasible at this point. When EVIL arrives (electronic viewfinder with interchangeable lens), then we may see one.

Samsung, on the other hand, could well introduce one.
01-25-2008, 04:07 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
I don't think we will see an K2000D type entry level camera from Pentax. It just does not fit into current company policy. Hoya specifically asked for improved profit margin. And an entry camera would only do the opposite.
Then the current company policy would be wrong. A low margin entry level is good getting people to buy into your system. You can't sell high margin semi-pro's to everyone.

QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Sub-$500 to 600 market is very competitive, price is kept low, and there is not much money to be made there - UNLESS it sells loads and loads such as D40.
They should've updated the K100D with prime, add super functions, lower price a further 50,- to 549,- and rebrand it K1000D in 2008 and could've kept it running till the end of 2008 (if 6mp stayed available otherwise switch to 10mp).

QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
So you only make money on large volume to make up for the lower profit margin. And this would also eat away the current already limited production facility.
True.

QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Well, unless they can think of an innovative way to reduce manufacturing cost like all plastic body, one chip does all or camera-on-a-chip , it does not look like it is possible or feasible at this point. When EVIL arrives (electronic viewfinder with interchangeable lens), then we may see one.
See above.

QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Samsung, on the other hand, could well introduce one.
Possibly.

Last edited by CSpronken; 01-25-2008 at 04:14 PM.
01-25-2008, 04:24 PM   #60
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I think Pentax's strategy regarding a KxxxxD is brilliant.

I think there is a VAST untapped market for DSLRs.

That market is where the Nikon FM10 and Canon EOS Rebel K2 are.

There is nothing digital that is worth shooting in the $200 to $300 market. ONLY point and shoot junk.

Surely APS-C 6mp sensors are now a commodity item. If Sony wants to keep selling them (in large quantities) they need to go into a NEW commodity level of DSLR. The enthusiast/advanced-amateur market has moved to 10mp. The demand for that 6mp sensor is going to evaporate quickly -- unless someone has the nerve to introduce:

The K1000D.

Build quality at the level of a Pentax MZ-M, or EOS Rebel, or FM-10. In other words, plastic cameras with plastic lens mounts that accept current lenses.

Features: who cares about FPS? Who cares about auto-liveview-coffee brewing? You sell an entry-level DSLR on the following features:
  • you can change the lens
  • you look like a "pro"
  • NO shutter lag

Everything else DOESN"T MATTER to 95% of the market. How else could the EOS Rebel and K1000 sell so well for so long?

A cheap DSLR will sell to the enormous market who want a camera that takes better pictures than their cellphone or Canon Powershot or Fuji A-series. Most folks spend no more than $150 on a camera (35mm point and shoot or now digital point and shoot). If pressured by a photography class, or a desire to plunge into photography as a hobby, they would spend $200 to $300 on a DSLR. But most are unlikely to ever jump in at $800, $1000 or $3000.

Most DSLRs today are "enthusiast" cameras. It is like the Nikon F80 -- almost enough camera for a pro, in an attractively small package, for a sub-$1000 pricetag. That's a rareified market.

Ten years ago, I didn't know ANYONE with a real Nikon. But every dabbler / hobbyist / schoolgirl / aspiring artist I knew could afford a Canon EOS Rebel, or a Pentax K1000. So they owned one. Those same people today are NOT buying a Nikon D40. They buy a Canon Powershot A560 for $150.

I say, go for it Pentax. I'll even buy one!
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