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01-26-2008, 05:23 AM   #31
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Very good analysis BUT....

In the UK its retailing for £900 body only (thats $1800) and the 40D is £750, then A700 is £900 and the D3 is £1300. More to the point, the Samsung is £700.

Now if they were around £800 I think they would find it easier.

However you have done an excellent analysis and I think it makes a very good point. Dont forget to post this on the "other" forum.

QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
Mr Smith recently got interested in photography.

After buying his first P&S and finding it too restrictive in the lens department, he rapidly graduated to a super zoom bridge camera but quickly found out that the tiny sensor was frustrating him on the IQ dept., especially in anything low lightish.

So off goes Mr Smith to buy a spanking new DSLR.

He enters the camera shop and sees all these marvelous beasts staring at him with their small tags covered in barbaric terms.

This time, he wants something "serious", entry level won't do.

So he goes to the "expert section: there, on the shelf seat 5 DSLRs: a 40D, an A700, an E3, a K20 and a D300.

They all look quite the same: serious impressive and well built.

OK, lets look at the tags (by MSRP price):

K20 says: 14,6MP, ISO 100-6400, Live view, Shake Reduction, Weather resistant - $1199
40D says: 10MP, ISO 100-3200, Live view, Dust resistant -$1199
A700 says: 12,5MP, ISO 100-6400, No Live View Anti Shake Weather resistant - $1399
E3 says: 10MP, ISO 100-3200, Live view, Anti Shake, Weather resistant - $1699
D300 says: 12,5MP, ISO 100-6400, Live View, Weather Sealed - $1799

Mmmmhhhh... what will Mr Smith choose...


01-26-2008, 05:27 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
The real problem is in 80% of the stores Mr. Smith goes into there will only be 3 of 5 to choose from and Pentax won't be one of them.
I don't know where you live but in France, two years ago, Pentax was absent from all major retailers, be it mortar and brick or online.

Great stores only carried one or two bodies with one or two zooms max.

Today, all major stores carry the full lineup of Pentax bodies + lenses.

Stocks are still pretty weak but you can find lenses and body much more easily than two years ago. When I look at online stores (France & Germany), I see the same trend, Pentax products are less and less back ordered and more and more available for 48h delivery.

The trend is good and sales have followed so...
01-26-2008, 05:29 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
In the UK its retailing for £900 body only (thats $1800) and the 40D is £750, then A700 is £900 and the D3 is £1300. More to the point, the Samsung is £700.

Now if they were around £800 I think they would find it easier.

However you have done an excellent analysis and I think it makes a very good point. Dont forget to post this on the "other" forum.
Yeah but English people are crazy... every French knows this...

At this price, buy it online from a reputable German dealer and send a message to Pentax UK... maybe they'll understand...
01-26-2008, 08:48 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
I'm not saying you or anyone else here doesn't give their honest sales advice, but even if one doesn't work on commission, one's salary and performance is usually linked to how much money one makes for the store. So the "I don't work on commission" line seems a bit, I dunno, not-telling-the-whole-story -- as anyone who's gotten the hard sell for extended warranties and gold-plated gamma-radiation-shield cables from a not-on-commission Best Buy employee can attest.
I don't think it's "not telling the whole story" at all. It depends greatly on the sales person. Certainly you do not object to offering the customer accesories ( memory cards, camera bag, etc.).

As far as "service plans" or a "warranty" or whatever the store may call it goes...it's up to the sales person to answer coverage questions honestly and be realistic with the customer. If the customer buys it...great. If not....whatever. There are camera sales where I have agreed it was not in the customers best interest to purchase coverage. I have seen many people walk out of my store with a shiney new camera because they had coverage. Just an observation.

01-26-2008, 08:56 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by OniFactor Quote
personally, since i'm a salesperson who is paid by commission (tools though), i think that having sales people who actually care to keep a product sold, and a customer happy, lest they get returns, would work out to get the customer the right camera, otherwise it's money out of their pockets, when it does get returned
You make a valid point. There are many shops however where they receive "kick backs" or some other reward for selling one manufactures product as opposed to another.

Shopping at a store where the sales person is free to recomend any camera ( tools, etc. )they think is right for the customer is important to me.
01-26-2008, 09:45 AM   #36
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Funny...

You got some pretty good chuckles out that one from me.


QuoteOriginally posted by Igilligan Quote

Then Joe gets an idea. He puts the training wheels back on the bike. Has his daughter sit on the seat. And takes some wonderful pictures of her. He tells her to pretend like she is riding the bike and takes some "action" shots of her. He shows the pictures to his wife and tells her that it just took him a bit to figure out how to get the best out of the camera. She is happy with the photos of her daughter "riding" the bike... and tells Joe how good of a photographer he is. All is swell in Joe's World.....
THE END



01-26-2008, 11:19 AM   #37
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I'm actually curious as to how many people would choose to compromise in MP (14.6 versus 10) or compromise in FPS (3 versus 6.5). AF speed would probably not be considered much by Mr. Smith at this point, he's happy looking through a viewfinder and seeing the lens lock into focus.

As well, the brand name comes back into play here. The combination of the 40D's price and brand name might give it a slight nudge ahead of the Pentax, even considering the compelling 4.6 MP deficiency. Sony might have been a consideration for Mr. Smith, who most likely came from either a Canon or Sony P&S, but the price and lack of live view would probably scare him off. Few people, especially those coming from a P&S, would rather not venture far from the big names when choosing their first DSLRs.

The question now becomes: how can Pentax install itself as a household name to be able to show the good value it presents? Marketing and advertising now comes into play.
01-26-2008, 11:50 AM   #38
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"Marketing and advertising now comes into play."

How true. Where will the funds come from for Pentax's promotional campaign?

01-26-2008, 12:12 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote
I'm actually curious as to how many people would choose to compromise in MP (14.6 versus 10) or compromise in FPS (3 versus 6.5). AF speed would probably not be considered much by Mr. Smith at this point, he's happy looking through a viewfinder and seeing the lens lock into focus.
Is that specification on the little card in front of each camera?

Stores around here show this info on that card:
  • # of megapixels (always the first item)
  • size of LCD screen in inches
  • any peculiar feature for that camera (in-body stabilization, use of 4/3 imager, etc)

I never see FPS listed on those cards. I never hear customers in the store ask about it.

It's interesting to stand around in a store like Best Buy, where they leave all the cameras out (on tethers) for people to play with. The store clerks only come around if you are asking to buy a camera.

When people are left to handle cameras on their own with no pressure, they immediately pick up the cameras that they see advertised. Invariably that's the Canon. Once I saw a girlfriend ask her boyfriend (who was looking at the Canon) "What about that one? The... Nikon?" The guy said, "I didn't know they still made cameras." Sony, Pentax and Olympus cameras on display were summarily ignored.

I also see methodical customers, who walk down the line and read the specification card on each camera. The K100D was bypassed when they read "6mp". The Nikon D50, D70s and D40 (all of which were available in shops quite recently) were all bypassed as soon as they read "6mp." Nikon had a real perception problem. These kind of customers immediately started to look closer at the D40X when they read "10mp." But the price was now higher than the Canon... same problem with the K10D -- the megapixel was right to compete, the price was too high.

After watching folks in store for more than a year, I think they buy cameras in this order:

Name
Megapixel
Price

Any one of these three can trump the decision.

I think that the K20D is well positioned on megapixel and price. It's great to see Pentax advertising again, to work on the "name". Pentax has great name recognition if you are over 30, but the kids just don't seem to know about the Spotmatic!
01-26-2008, 12:55 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by filmamigo Quote
Pentax has great name recognition if you are over 30, but the kids just don't seem to know about the Spotmatic!
My professor was surprised and excited to see a K100D DSLR in my hand
He has been an asahi pentax fan once upon a time.

I do not know how true but, at his times pentax was still lower priced than canons and nikons.
01-26-2008, 05:12 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
Yeah but English people are crazy... every French knows this...

At this price, buy it online from a reputable German dealer and send a message to Pentax UK... maybe they'll understand...
I have three options...
1. I will be visiting Paris in a few months so I can buy one there...
2. I can wait for Pentax to realise they screwed up and bring the price down a bit.
3. I can buy a Samsung

Somehow I'm not bothered.

However if Pentax allow Samsung to steal their market share in the UK we have an issue. Pentax will not be stocked anywhere and Samsung owners will have no access to lenses.

I do hope they see sense. There is room for a differential (say Samsung +£100 or a 15% markup) for the badge and backup, but not £200 (a 30% markup).
01-26-2008, 05:44 PM   #42
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Very interesting set-up. Only trouble is, Joe Smith will have to fight to buy the Pentax. That is if he first can find it in the back row, and after the sales people have told him that they only use Canon and Nikon.
Live View and high resolution will help many first time buyers that want high quality SLR. If the word on better sensor technology and therefore good high Iso, is correct; we could be in for some fine time.


People will have heard of Sony from stereos and kids Playstations, but will not know them from photography. But most have heard of Canon and Nikon here. And most bigger stores know that Pentax has been in the SLR business for a long time.


I do think that the sales price needs to be cheaper than the Eos 40D. Not all will understand the weatherresistance difference, or think that it matters. But then again Mr. Smith will be coming from a P&S camera that was 8-10 MP, so he’ll probably think that he would like more when going for DSLR. 10 MP might not impress. Still the sales pitch from the clerks will probably make him lean towards Canon.

At B&H, the big companys have paid for stands, but Pentax have not. I believe it is still so.
01-27-2008, 06:31 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by filmamigo Quote
After watching folks in store for more than a year, I think they buy cameras in this order:

Name
Megapixel
Price

Any one of these three can trump the decision.

I think that the K20D is well positioned on megapixel and price. It's great to see Pentax advertising again, to work on the "name". Pentax has great name recognition if you are over 30, but the kids just don't seem to know about the Spotmatic!
Could be, but in choosing non-entry-level cameras, certainly one goes a little more in-depth with the specs of the camera, considering our protagonist Mr. Smith wants best value for money.

Of course the K20D is good value, but that also depends on what importance Mr. Smith puts on certain features, especially branding, where Canon and Sony have a lock on the P&S market Mr. Smith is coming from.

I'm thinking the K20D will sell to it's intended target market, the advanced amateur, not to those upgrading from P&Ses.
01-27-2008, 06:38 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
People will have heard of Sony from stereos and kids Playstations, but will not know them from photography.
Well, there's that P&S market where Canon and Sony (not sure who's ahead of the other) has the lead. Sony is known for digital cameras, but not DSLRs thus far. Funny since they have plenty of money that could go into marketing/advertising. In my country, I've seen more plugs for the smile shutter cameras than their DSLR line!

QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
I do think that the sales price needs to be cheaper than the Eos 40D. Not all will understand the weatherresistance difference, or think that it matters. But then again Mr. Smith will be coming from a P&S camera that was 8-10 MP, so he’ll probably think that he would like more when going for DSLR. 10 MP might not impress. Still the sales pitch from the clerks will probably make him lean towards Canon.

At B&H, the big companys have paid for stands, but Pentax have not. I believe it is still so.
Having the same price as the 40D is probably okay, but that'll only work once Pentax has re-established themselves as a household name when it comes to cameras. As it stands now, yes, the price might have to be lowered.

From the photos I've seen of B&H (I haven't been inside the store itself), Pentax does have a stand, only that they're sharing the same stand with Olympus. Not sure if the photos I've seen are recent or what.
01-27-2008, 07:04 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by filmamigo Quote
Is that specification on the little card in front of each camera?

Stores around here show this info on that card:
  • # of megapixels (always the first item)
  • size of LCD screen in inches
  • any peculiar feature for that camera (in-body stabilization, use of 4/3 imager, etc)

I never see FPS listed on those cards. I never hear customers in the store ask about it.

It's interesting to stand around in a store like Best Buy, where they leave all the cameras out (on tethers) for people to play with. The store clerks only come around if you are asking to buy a camera.

When people are left to handle cameras on their own with no pressure, they immediately pick up the cameras that they see advertised. Invariably that's the Canon. Once I saw a girlfriend ask her boyfriend (who was looking at the Canon) "What about that one? The... Nikon?" The guy said, "I didn't know they still made cameras." Sony, Pentax and Olympus cameras on display were summarily ignored.

I also see methodical customers, who walk down the line and read the specification card on each camera. The K100D was bypassed when they read "6mp". The Nikon D50, D70s and D40 (all of which were available in shops quite recently) were all bypassed as soon as they read "6mp." Nikon had a real perception problem. These kind of customers immediately started to look closer at the D40X when they read "10mp." But the price was now higher than the Canon... same problem with the K10D -- the megapixel was right to compete, the price was too high.
I agree completely, I still don't see why Pentax never added a 10mp version of the K100D. Now they have with the K200D, unfortunately I think they underestimated the competition. A larger buffer and a Penta prism would've made it competitive at that price. Now 699,- seems more in order.

QuoteOriginally posted by filmamigo Quote
After watching folks in store for more than a year, I think they buy cameras in this order:

Name
Megapixel
Price

Any one of these three can trump the decision.
Yup.

QuoteOriginally posted by filmamigo Quote
I think that the K20D is well positioned on megapixel and price. It's great to see Pentax advertising again, to work on the "name". Pentax has great name recognition if you are over 30, but the kids just don't seem to know about the Spotmatic!
Exactly, many people not seem to realize this, to a new guy Pentax looks like a B-brand; pro's don't use it, there is very little advertisement, very narrow model range.

So eventually, Pentax need to broaden their product range, fulfil pro requirements (equipment and support) and increase advertisement, which should also highlight Pentax history and pedigree as a camera maker.

Doing lot's of advertising for mediocre products or great products without good advertisement both are no use, it's the combination of great product range with good advertisement that forwards your brand
IMO.



PS. I agree £100 difference would just about be be acceptable for the K20D.

Last edited by CSpronken; 01-27-2008 at 07:23 AM.
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