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09-03-2012, 09:49 AM   #646
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
I think they should explore every avenue and K-01 is a logical step to keep the K mount happy in the mirrorless world.
There are people who will really use sans-mirror designs of cameras for their work, and Pentax is smart for allowing them to do so.
What on Earth is wrong with that?!? K-02, or whatever it will be called, can be only better and come with more features..
I hope so indeed.



QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Well, although what you say is theoretically correct and has implications, in real life that theory is hollow, because none of us here knows anything about Pentax's plans for the FF world. And they would be stupid to announce anything ahead, before big three do they announcements first. Remember when the K-5 was announced, and a day or two afterwards a D7000 was announced by Nikon too, catching everyone off guard? Pentax then quickly changed the marketing blurb about the K-5's ISO, to top the number of the D7000's marketing info. In theory what Pentax was claiming was possible, and they did it. And perhaps because of that, K-5 is still in high regard.

So while the act is still in play, keep watching because like in a good horse race, last seconds will decide final specs and features of all the cameras.
interesting point of view, i would prefer Pentax to innovate rather than to copy with minimal differences

QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote
"how long have i been away?" not long it seems, nothing changed.

may i respectfully suggest you "give us a break" (and particularly some people who think their rant is so essential and insightful they should cross post it to several threads. that's beyond rude and narcissistic, some native speaker help me here, i can't find the right word; meanwhile: please just don't #%# do it).

pentax has been facing extinction due to "lack of full frame" for 5 years or so now, at least as long as i've been shooting pentax dslrs. here's the news for you: nobody cares, i'm sorry, but nobody does. it's not my opinion, it's just plain cold fact. the k-5 still rocks, still was loved by many new and old pentaxians, life went on (same goes for k7, k20, k10, etc)

... i'm sorry, but i'm getting a bit sick and tired with this "pentax _needs_ to come with ff or they are dead, i'm jumping ship, i'll set the building on fire, etc". grow up. If you want full frame, go buy it. If you can't afford it, don't expect pentax to make a fully featured ff camera and sell it for 700bucks (just because they managed to sell something like the k-5 for a price well bellow what anybody else asks), when pentax will be able to sell a ff for what you can afford, everybody else will, so please sit down, be quiet, and wait. maybe the time will come. maybe soon. or maybe not so soon, or maybe never. If you care that much, and you think it really matters to you for whatever reason, just save up and buy what's available now, but i think childish threats are not helping anybody.
... /me puts on the fireproof cape and walks away, calmly
Sorry if i dared contributing to your sickness, but this forum is a place where personnal opinions as well as free expression rule.
I know yet dozens of skilled photographers met on several forums that have sold their Pentax gear juste for the fact our preferred manufacturer didn't propose any digital FF body.
If this in not bad news for Pentax, you will have to explain why sales have been continuously dropping since at least 5 years.
Imo the relation is evident, possibly also related to lack of appropriate R&D choices altogether with very deficient marketing policy.
That's my perception, anyway !


Last edited by Zygonyx; 09-03-2012 at 09:59 AM.
09-03-2012, 09:53 AM   #647
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
There is fun in it and I want a yellow Full Frame K-3


(so we don't have to go to: Pimp your cam )
Give me a silver one to pair with a 85/1.4 and I'll be very happy.
09-03-2012, 10:01 AM   #648
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
  1. K-3
  2. K-300
  3. DA 560mm f/5.6
  4. K-01 dedicated pancake lens
  5. DFA 645 90mm f/2.8
  6. Q telephoto zoom
  7. Q pinhole lens
  8. K to Q adapter
  9. ?
Good start !
09-03-2012, 11:21 AM   #649
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
Give me a silver one to pair with a 85/1.4 and I'll be very happy.
FA*85 is like jewelry! It goes well with everything.



Also on my yellow K-01

09-03-2012, 11:27 AM   #650
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
FA*85 is like jewelry! It goes well with everything.
For me it'd be bright lime green, neon blue, sunflower yellow, with black and red accents.

And yes, the FA* 85 would look absolutely stunning on it!
09-03-2012, 12:45 PM   #651
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
I hope so indeed.




interesting point of view, i would prefer Pentax to innovate rather than to copy with minimal differences


Sorry if i dared contributing to your sickness, but this forum is a place where personnal opinions as well as free expression rule.
I know yet dozens of skilled photographers met on several forums that have sold their Pentax gear juste for the fact our preferred manufacturer didn't propose any digital FF body.
don't worry, i can stand it, i've had years of training on pentaxforums . and i'm not sure where i was proposing to censor free speech and opinion, or was it when i said "people who want full frame should be shot on sight"?

i'm sure you have seen/met a few, i have not said there's none, i only said there's so few they don't really matter. i'm sorry, but this is (no longer?) a market where products are sold by the hundreds, this is now a "consumer market", with the scale implied.

you're misunderstanding me, i know there's people who "mean it" and went and bought what they decided they do need, and i respect their choice entirely. i even said as much, quite clearly, and i encourage anybody who feels like them to do the same: life's short, and even if later there will be what you want from pentax, you can easily go back (i doubt a body and especially good lenses for the big two won't be sellable if needed), there's no logical reason to hold back, if that's what you want. _if_ that's what you want.

QuoteQuote:
If this in not bad news for Pentax, you will have to explain why sales have been continuously dropping since at least 5 years.
Imo the relation is evident, possibly also related to lack of appropriate R&D choices altogether with very deficient marketing policy.
That's my perception, anyway !
no, it is not bad news, and no i don't have to explain . the relation is there only because you want to see it: there are many factors at play here, and the relationship between them is quite complex, concluding "sales have dropped because there's no fullframe" is naive.

if pentax will ever release a 35mm dslr, it will have to be when their market study shows it makes economical sense to do so, pentax most likely cannot afford to make a product just to make a statement, they need to make money on it quite directly (unlike the likes of canon and nikon), the 645d does raise the question on this, but it appears they worked it out well, as there seems to indeed be a (very special and focused) market for it.

let me put it simply: if you won't buy a 35mm dslr from any of the big two now, when you say you want one so much, what will make you buy a similarly priced one from pentax, the name on the pentaprism? that's the problem, imho. there's probably two major categories: those who mean it, and buy, and move on, and those who don't really mean it (or when they say "pentax fullframe" they mean "something like the d800 at half the price"). there's of course a minority which falls under neither, but those are very rare, and, again, sorry, they don't count (statistically)
09-03-2012, 01:21 PM   #652
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QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote
let me put it simply: if you won't buy a 35mm dslr from any of the big two now, when you say you want one so much, what will make you buy a similarly priced one from pentax, the name on the pentaprism? that's the problem, imho. there's probably two major categories: those who mean it, and buy, and move on, and those who don't really mean it (or when they say "pentax fullframe" they mean "something like the d800 at half the price"). there's of course a minority which falls under neither, but those are very rare, and, again, sorry, they don't count (statistically)
For me it's threefold.

Ergonomics
Size
Price.


I like Pentax Ergonomics. I would pay a premium for them. I like that my left hand is the lens hand and the right controls all camera functions without me taking my eye off the viewfinder. I require the dual wheels. I really dislike both Canon and Nikon's ergonomics, although I find Canon's OK to hold and Nikon's dual wheels OK.

I like Pentax camera sizes, but the D600 size is fine by me, too. The 5DIII and D800 are a bit bigger and a bit much for me to take hiking, but that disadvantage gets exponentially worse when combined with Canon/Nikon sized lenses.

The price of a Canon/Nikon camera system is pretty high for me. I'd have to replace thousands of dollars of glass and $500 on a flash, and several hundred on odds and ends (49mm filters, batteries, etc). Even if I 'only' take a 25% hit on the lens switch-er-roo, going to Canon/Nikon would be a big cost penalty... in other words if things were otherwise EXACTLY the same, I'd be better off spending $1k more on a Pentax than going Nikon.
09-03-2012, 01:30 PM - 2 Likes   #653
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QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote
I have never in my life heard somebody bitch about leica not coming up with a 6x6 camera, or 645: people would buy a bronica or whatever they fancied, and get on with it.
If Leica would have instead discontinued 35mm cameras and replaced them with cameras of a similar size that took only APS-C film, you'd have heard the bitching. Big time.

QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote
i'm sorry, but i'm getting a bit sick and tired with this "pentax _needs_ to come with ff or they are dead, i'm jumping ship, i'll set the building on fire, etc".
I'm sure those looking for a FF from Pentax are every bit as sick of the "Pentax shouldn't/doesn't need to come out with a FF" and "Pentax can't compete with Nikon/Canon" etc. ad nauseum comments from those blinded to the reality - Pentax is slowly dying as its customer base shrinks. All the internet pontificating from those who think it makes "business sense" to continue the bone-headed "bottom feeding" Pentax has been doing (by stubbornly limiting its offerings to APS-C dSLRs) doesn't hold credibility when compared to the actions of third party lens makers who are betting on not having enough sales in K-mount to justify making K-mount lenses. See Zeiss, Voigtlander and Tamron (new lenses not being made in K-mount) and Sigma (fewer lenses in K-mount, restricted to mostly consumer grade lenses).

QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote
this has been going on for years now. aps-c is not going anywhere, despite various wishes and pipedreams of some people. it's a different format, has it's place, and will stay. even the (seemingly useless) 4/3 format is still around and doing fine, how come olympus is not dead in the water? (note to self: check if olympus users are bitching that oly must come with aps-c or they will "set the building on fire")
4/3 is not "doing fine" in the dSLR market; Olympus is essentially out of the dSLR market. Speaks volumes for the strategy of refusing to circle back to the format your customer base was in at the start. Nobody is crying for a 4/3 to APS-C move by Olympus because (a) their dSLR customer base is already gone and (b) because the difference between 4/3 and APS-C is less than the difference between APS-C and FF (4/3 is 2/3 the size of APS-C, APs-C is less than half (42.25%) of FF.

QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote
pentax might come with a ff camera, or they might not.
You might as well say "Pentax will survive, or it may not." Same thing ultimately, even if you don't want to face it. As FF cameras continue to come down in price, there will soon be a point where Pentax can no longer sell APS-C cameras to anyone but an ever-shrinking list of vocal "we don't need FF" Kool-Aid drinkers. They can't "grow" (as Ricoh indicated their intention to be) without FF, because FF is starting to grow market share at this point (as in Nikon can't make D800s fast enough to keep up with demand at this point (at $3,000 a pop), and the rumored D600 at a lower price point will add gasoline to that fire).

For the record, I bought a Nikon setup two years ago. Doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see a Pentax FF to use with my manual focus Pentax glass. APS-C viewfinders don't cut it for manual focus and never will, and I was therefore never satisfied - and never would be - with less-than-half-frame cameras. Competition is a good thing, and more FF cameras in the market is better, so I'd rather see Pentax prosper than die. Everyone who advances the "Pentax doesn't need FF" arguments seems to believe that they can continue the same "bottom feeding" mistake of APS-C only and achieve a different result (i.e., increasing market share). I don't.

09-03-2012, 01:32 PM   #654
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@ 24x36NOW : i fully agree with you

QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
For me it's threefold.

Ergonomics
Size
Price.


I like Pentax Ergonomics. I would pay a premium for them. I like that my left hand is the lens hand and the right controls all camera functions without me taking my eye off the viewfinder. I require the dual wheels. I really dislike both Canon and Nikon's ergonomics, although I find Canon's OK to hold and Nikon's dual wheels OK.

I like Pentax camera sizes, but the D600 size is fine by me, too. The 5DIII and D800 are a bit bigger and a bit much for me to take hiking, but that disadvantage gets exponentially worse when combined with Canon/Nikon sized lenses.

The price of a Canon/Nikon camera system is pretty high for me. I'd have to replace thousands of dollars of glass and $500 on a flash, and several hundred on odds and ends (49mm filters, batteries, etc). Even if I 'only' take a 25% hit on the lens switch-er-roo, going to Canon/Nikon would be a big cost penalty... in other words if things were otherwise EXACTLY the same, I'd be better off spending $1k more on a Pentax than going Nikon.
Same for me.
Holding a thorough set from FA, A* and FA* series, no doubt i would buy a 35mm SLR whatever its limitations.
And i guess there are quite a few in my case...
For the others, the single fact to know their gear's preffered label "makes it possible" for anyone that want to develop its photographic skills or it's photographic potential, is a confidence added criteria in their buying choice.

Last edited by Zygonyx; 09-03-2012 at 01:40 PM.
09-03-2012, 02:06 PM - 1 Like   #655
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QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote
exactly, that's the "very few", and they are the least vocal ones usually. those who do buy are still few, by comparison.
You would know this how? I think the far better indication of how Pentax has been affected by the endless APS-C only "bottom feeding" in the dSLR market is the abandonment (full in many cases, partial in some) of the K-mount by third party lens makers. I think they are infinitely more likely to have the pulse of Pentax's prospects of success than you do. Pentax needs to introduce a FF dSLR to be taken seriously again, because obviously those who know better currently have seen fit for the most part to no longer treat the K-mount like it is a viable market for them.

QuoteOriginally posted by TAP Quote
You are certainly correct in saying that many Pentaxians can not afford [or will not purchase] a Pentax full-frame DSLR.
No, he is certainly not "correct," unless he has compiled statistics about the financial status of every Pentax user. Where do people get this crap?!

QuoteOriginally posted by TAP Quote
Photographers are loyal to their brand like sports fans to their favorite team; we want to see them thrive. We want to see Pentax succeed by producing a quality, superior product that outshines, or at least rivals the competition. We want Pentax to gain a stronger foothold and be seen as a [more] worthy competitor. We want leverage.
Photographers are loyal to their brand because each brand has its own lens mount and they can't use their lenses on another brand's cameras. Any other reason is trivial. If Pentax, Nikon, Canon, and Sony all had the same lens mount, then Pentax probably would have stopped selling cameras 5 years ago.

QuoteOriginally posted by TAP Quote
Staying relevant, and up-to-date is a key aspect in any successful business. This is something Pentax needs to do, not for the sake of their user base, but for the prosperity of the Pentax brand.
Indeed, in particular when their stated aim is to increase market share, which will certainly NOT occur if Pentax continues its bone-headed "bottom feeding" that has characterized its participation in the SLR and dSLR market since the dawn of autofocus. Pentax needs to have FF in its dSLR lineup if it expects to survive, much less grow.
09-03-2012, 02:37 PM   #656
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I still believe they will announce a FF LXD-Limited with 3 matching Limited lenses. ;-)
09-03-2012, 03:18 PM   #657
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
I still believe they will announce a FF LXD-Limited with 3 matching Limited lenses. ;-)
I'd love to share your optimism. That would be great.

A lot depends on how the D600 does. Every professional wedding/portrait photographer I know (~8, so it's not the largest sample size, but still) use either a 5dMk2 or D700 (more the latter than the former). Mind you, these are not wealthy photographers, quite the opposite - graduate students who do wedding photography as a side job, or new starts with very little capital. They all have a FF camera explicitly for the benefit the sensor size provides for portrait/wedding photography. Typically they only have the cash for a 2.8 zoom and the FF. The reason I say this, is that if the barely making it pro photographers jump for FF with the moderately expensive D700, how many more hobbyist photographers will jump at the D600? Many if not most amateur DSLR users know at least that APS-C and FF exist, are different, and that the pros they know (wedding/portrait) mostly use FF. It won't take much marketing to convince the amateurs/casual DSLR users to make the jump.

Obviously there are other types of pro's where APS-C has it's advantages, and there is something to be said for the whole camera/lens package size. These are just my 2c on the market.
09-03-2012, 05:34 PM   #658
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Russian Pentax dealer says that we could wait NINE (9!!!!!) announcements of new products NEXT week.
They have a fairly big stand at Photokina, have to fill it up with something.

Greetings
09-03-2012, 06:11 PM   #659
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
No, he is certainly not "correct," unless he has compiled statistics about the financial status of every Pentax user. Where do people get this crap?!
I said "many", not "most". Many is a relative term, and I was trying to be polite


I'm right there with you on the FF issue. The shrinking of 3rd party lens manufacturers are even more evidence that Pentax needs to do something.
09-03-2012, 07:18 PM   #660
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QuoteOriginally posted by TAP Quote
I said "many", not "most". Many is a relative term, and I was trying to be polite


I'm right there with you on the FF issue. The shrinking of 3rd party lens manufacturers are even more evidence that Pentax needs to do something.
It's almost like buying car when nobody but the OEM makes tyres for it.
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