Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
07-25-2012, 05:28 PM   #106
Pentaxian




Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Kaunas
Posts: 1,452
QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
You mean they will die like Olympus, Panasonic, Samsung and Fuji, who all use APS-C sensor size or smaller?
And how many DSLRs are they producing and selling? Also compare their various mirrorless offerings vs Pentax mirrorless offerings.


Last edited by Edvinas; 07-25-2012 at 05:49 PM.
07-25-2012, 05:51 PM   #107
Pentaxian
Uluru's Avatar

Join Date: May 2010
Location: Back to my Walkabout Creek
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,400
QuoteOriginally posted by JinDesu Quote
If it's the D800 sensor but priced $100 less than the D800, it'd better have quite a lot of extra features to entice people to Pentax...
Are you really buying a DSLR based on "number of features"? Then a D4 or 1Dx would be top sellers everywhere.
However, to a new person buying into a DSLR inside today's consumerist society, that may be the excuse, but not the real reason — they buy into security of investment, not features, and least in photography.

But the very fact Pentax DSLRs support K-mount lenses is the major feature that puts them above N or C cameras.

Last edited by Uluru; 07-25-2012 at 06:01 PM.
07-25-2012, 05:59 PM   #108
Pentaxian
JinDesu's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: New York City
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 5,624
QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Are you really buying a DSLR based on "number of features"? To a new person buying into a DSLR inside today's consumerist society that may be the excuse.
But the very fact Pentax DSLRs support K-mount lenses is the major feature that puts them above N or C cameras.
Depends on who is asking. A professional looking for the latest and greatest lenses isn't going to find the tons of k-mount lenses to be a "major feature"
07-25-2012, 07:27 PM   #109
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: GMT +10
Photos: Albums
Posts: 10,585
QuoteOriginally posted by JinDesu Quote
A professional looking for the latest and greatest lenses isn't going to find the tons of k-mount lenses to be a "major feature"
I'd be interested one day to see the breakdown of D800 sales by user type.
I suspect that affluent amateurs are buying more D800's than professional photojournalists, wedding photographers etc. In part simply because there are more affluent amateurs out there than there are photo professionals.

There also seems to be a misconception about what 'professionals' are. Most of the professionals I know use APS-C, and also barely earn any money, certainly not enough money to be able to afford all the latest and greatest bodies and lenses etc whenever a manufacturer releases something new.

'Professional' doesn't mean rich, nor does it mean gear addict, or automatic FF or MF user.


Last edited by rawr; 07-25-2012 at 07:33 PM.
07-25-2012, 07:38 PM   #110
Pentaxian




Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Manila
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,191
I agree with a lot of stuff Uluru said except this... and some stuff about 3rd party lensmakers (Sigma and Tamron are doing well, as far as I see)

QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Cameras don't make money — lenses do.
Nowadays, entry-level camera bodies are selling like hotcakes... and perhaps only half or less of entry-level buyers actually progress to higher bodies. Of course, they have competition in this level with m4/3s, which somehow keeps Panasonic, Olympus, Samsung and Fuji alive. FF will become cheaper in the long run and probably become the norm once more, but not this year.
07-25-2012, 07:43 PM   #111
Pentaxian
Uluru's Avatar

Join Date: May 2010
Location: Back to my Walkabout Creek
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,400
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Still, I have no doubt that Pentax could fit a full frame sensor in a K10/20 body size without too much problem.
Before the Leica M9 was announced, there was a rumour that Leica can in fact use the body of the M8 and squeeze in an FF sensor. Many so called Leica experts have laughed, claiming it was impossible, but it appeared it was exactly so and Leica did that.

Has anyone ever opened the guts of the Pentax K7/K5, cut it in half or something similar to ascertain whether there's enough space for an FF sensor and its mirror? I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't exactly the case.
07-25-2012, 07:43 PM   #112
Pentaxian




Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Manila
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,191
QuoteOriginally posted by JinDesu Quote
A professional looking for the latest and greatest lenses isn't going to find the tons of k-mount lenses to be a "major feature"
I second this. Most pro's are secure with Canon and Nikon as a system. The ability to use old glass is something more associated with hobbyists, in my opinion. Though I do believe a lot of pros also use Pentax, when it comes to a "system and associated support (e.g. accessories, delivery, customer handling etc) the big two have a long leap ahead of Pentax. And that can't be caught up with overnight.
07-25-2012, 07:46 PM   #113
Pentaxian




Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Manila
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,191
QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Has anyone ever opened the guts of the Pentax K7/K5, cut it in half or something similar to ascertain whether there's enough space for an FF sensor and its mirror? I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't exactly the case.
PENTAX K-5 (K5) | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

All sizes | PENTAX K-5 (K5) | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

try these links. Though I'm not sure if that's already possible by today's tech. The SR mechanism around the sensor takes up a lot of space too. One of the reasons why the Q, small as it is, couldn't be made as small as the Auto110.

07-25-2012, 07:56 PM   #114
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 499
QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
You mean they will die like Olympus, Panasonic, Samsung and Fuji, who all use APS-C sensor size or smaller?
See the post below:

QuoteOriginally posted by Edvinas Quote
And how many DSLRs are they producing and selling? Also compare their various mirrorless offerings vs Pentax mirrorless offerings.
Olympus is the only manufacturer you listed that sells dSLRs, and their dSLR business is just about dead, since they adopted a smaller (and inferior) format as their "standard."

QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Rather smelling a fear of death of their own. Their decisions have nothing to do with Pentax being APS-C at the moment, because the glass they produce is optically same for all mounts, and only mounts differ. What they do is what all companies who face deadly effects of the financial crisis and swiftly changing product landscapes do: they cut all the unnecessary "cost", cut overheads based on vague economic prognosis, explore new products, shift into new markets altogether.

However, supporting extra mounts in the long run for them would mean lower overall cost and better margins, but not in short term analysis of the MBAs, who often jump on board, scare the hell out of engineers and production and lead them to a new merger, a new promised land, or some new tightening of the belt until they die out of starvation.

Do you believe camera manufacturers love the idea that people are buying lenses branded with third party supplier's name? The whole wealth of money in the interchangeable lens camera business is in lenses. Cameras don't make money lenses do. What will camera manufacturers do then is flood the market with their own cheaper versions of everything, or endless new iterations of the same, or slightly improved optical recipes (sounds familiar?). In the mind of the average customer who buys into a Nikon, or a Canon system, Nikon's or Canon's lens must be better anyway, because they are loyal to camera brand.

Thus it's not difficult to understand that a third party lens business is inevitably very difficult, and perhaps a futile one. You will se how "far-sighted" their decisions were as soon as Pentax issues an FF DSLR, the most anticipated thing since sliced bread: for example, all Zeiss' manual lenses will magically reappear, although in reality, it did cost them close to nil to have them supported all this time.

But in reality, it might have been that all this lack of third party support so far in fact helped Pentax to establish a better income coming from their own lenses which would otherwise go in third part supplier's pockets and invested that money into new products development.

Funny thing that lack of third party support, in fact. Maybe you can even thank them for not supporting.
1. The third party lens makers' decision not to make K-mount lenses has to do with the fact that Pentax's market share is shriveling up, and they know that it's not economic to bother making a run of lenses in K-mount until, and unless, that situation is reversed (i.e., because the PK versions don't sell at a rate that makes it worth making them any more). At this point, a Pentax FF dSLR is the only thing that will accomplish that, whether the "APS-C is good enough for me" crowd wants to admit it or not.

2. Whether camera makers like the idea of people buying third party lenses or not is irrelevant. Third party lenses add to the available choices, and the more choices are available, the more attractive a given mount becomes. Perhaps you prefer less choices, but I certainly do not, in particular where a particular manufacturer (in this case, Pentax) doesn't make an extensive lens collection. This is therefore a much bigger problem for Pentax than for Nikon or Canon (not that third party support for them is likely to disappear).

3. Your instinct about third party support returning after Pentax makes a FF dSLR is correct. It certainly isn't going to return if Pentax doesn't make a FF dSLR, because Pentax isn't going to retain customers, or attract many new ones, without a FF dSLR at this point.

4. I've heard this "the money is in lenses" argument a thousand times. I'd counter that Pentax makes money when they sell cameras as opposed to selling nothing, and that the margins are probably a lot fatter on things like batteries, battery grips, and remote shutter triggers, as opposed to precision manufacture items like lenses. These all sell when they sell cameras, whether they sell lenses or not, so it's not as if it's unprofitable for Pentax to sell camera bodies and related accessories, even to those not buying Pentax lenses. Pentax isn't selling more lenses because of the loss of third party support; they're selling LESS of EVERYTHING, because their customers are leaving,and they will continue to sell less of everything until they finally come out with a FF dSLR. Profitability requires volume that Pentax won't achieve at this stage without a FF dSLR in their lineup.

Ricoh has made bold statements about increasing the Pentax (i.e., K-mount) market share, and I therefore expect that this ambitious plan absolutely includes a FF dSLR. The longer it takes for them to get on with it, the greater the chance that there won't be a customer base left to care about it when they do. It's just that simple.
07-25-2012, 08:00 PM   #115
Veteran Member




Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Denver
Photos: Albums
Posts: 570
@Alizarine Hadn't seen those before. Thanks for sharing!
07-25-2012, 08:08 PM   #116
Pentaxian




Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Manila
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,191
QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
Looks like I have to eat my words: I was only able to find 1/2 a dozen shots in the 1/13 to 1/30 ball park that were keepers and most of those were at less than 200mm. The Sigma 150 OS Macro does seem to keep up with the Nikon VR system though as I have a few shots from that lens at around 1/25 that work. I don't have my D800E for the moment so I can't really do a side by side comparison with my K-5. The D800E was handed over to the local service centre 2 weeks ago to pass on to Nikon Australia to calibrate focus... NA only received it yesterday so I suppose I won't see it for yet another 2 weeks. Either the local tech was enjoying playing with my camera for over a week or they use camels to deliver them. I'm pretty angry.
Thanks for taking the time and effort for it. Will wait for your take on the D800 and K-5 comparison. Hopefully the techs return the cam soon..
07-25-2012, 11:13 PM   #117
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 8,423
QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
1. The third party lens makers' decision not to make K-mount lenses has to do with the fact that Pentax's market share is shriveling up, and they know that it's not economic to bother making a run of lenses in K-mount until, and unless, that situation is reversed (i.e., because the PK versions don't sell at a rate that makes it worth making them any more). At this point, a Pentax FF dSLR is the only thing that will accomplish that, whether the "APS-C is good enough for me" crowd wants to admit it or not.
A "FF" camera is not an absolute requirement for increasing the market share; it's not like Pentax did their best in the APS-C arena (with only 2 cameras at a time, and still having to work on lenses/accessories).
07-25-2012, 11:25 PM   #118
Pentaxian




Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Manila
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,191
QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
Pentax isn't selling more lenses because of the loss of third party support; they're selling LESS of EVERYTHING, because their customers are leaving,and they will continue to sell less of everything until they finally come out with a FF dSLR. Profitability requires volume that Pentax won't achieve at this stage without a FF dSLR in their lineup.
You make it sound as if Pentax is dying this year if they don't release an FF camera by Photokina ... that hurts

@TomTextura : no prob! It's cool looking at the K-5's innards... it looks very complex.
07-26-2012, 12:02 AM   #119
Pentaxian
Clavius's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: De Klundert
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 4,115
QuoteOriginally posted by Alizarine Quote
You make it sound as if Pentax is dying this year if they don't release an FF camera by Photokina ... that hurts
You know what they say: "The truth hurts." So it must be true then.
07-26-2012, 12:36 AM - 1 Like   #120
Site Supporter




Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Aylesbury, Bucks
Photos: Albums
Posts: 492
I wonder whether on the Olympus E-series forums there's a bloke calling himself 25.1X16.7NOW who demands that Olympus make an APS-C DSLR.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
dslr, frame, k-3, pentax, pentax news, pentax rumors, photokina
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pentax Full Frame DSLR (Well, sort of...) 721 Pentax Full Frame 83 08-18-2014 01:44 AM
Pentax...make a bare bones full frame high mp dslr. slackercruster Photographic Industry and Professionals 12 09-26-2012 04:20 PM
K30, K5n, K3 and maybe full-frame at Photokina... frankfanrui Pentax News and Rumors 638 09-06-2012 07:08 AM
Full Frame DSLR Spacebandit Welcomes and Introductions 12 09-20-2011 04:34 AM
Photokina 2010, Pentax and the full frame mystery falconeye Pentax News and Rumors 727 09-03-2010 11:11 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:35 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top