Pentax To Announce the K-3 Full Frame DSLR At Photokina

ElJamoquio · 07-24-2012, 07:54 PM

why can an APS-C camera be appreciably smaller than a FF?

Edvinas · 07-24-2012, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by sb in ak

Maybe, though I don't think APS-C is dead anytime soon. Unless the EVF tech gets amazing, I think there will be a group of folks who are looking for a smaller than FF camera with a real VF.

Look and Pentax film cameras like MZ series. They are even smaller than K-5. Yes, digital will add some size (DSLR will always be thicker because of electronics behind the sensor and back LCD) but end result shouldn't much larger than K-5. Let's wait and see what size Nikon D600 will be, I'm sure that it will be only slightly larger than D7000 and smaller than D300.

bossa · 07-24-2012, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by JohnBee

...the K-3 will follow in the K-5 footsteps in the sense that it will give current FF's a run for their money. And that includes the D800 also.

Frankly, the D800 produces levels of detail I never expected to see in a DSLR. It's like opening a door into reality by comparison to what I'd been using prior - it's 'scary'. Any camera that can give that one a "run for its money" might well be worth waiting for in the short term but I suspect the wait to be awhile yet.

rawr · 07-24-2012, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by Edvinas

those two APS-C cameras in the middle layer (other two are already FF) will be pushed out by cheap FF DSLR(s)

While newer, cheaper FF DSLRs may come onto the scene and have an impact, APS-C sensor technology will also keep moving forward too, of course. All the technology movement isn't going to happen just in FF. Any advances in price/performance in FF will likely be matched (or exceeded, due to cheaper fabbing) by APS-C in future.

I for one like my 1.5 crop factor and wish Pentax APS-C a bright future.

bossa · 07-24-2012, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by rawr

While newer, cheaper FF DSLRs may come onto the scene and have an impact, APS-C sensor technology will also keep moving forward too, of course. All the technology movement isn't going to happen just in FF. Any advances in price/performance in FF will likely be matched (or exceeded, due to cheaper fabbing) by APS-C in future.

I for one like my 1.5 crop factor and wish Pentax APS-C a bright future.

Unless lens technology makes a few large revolutionary leaps in the near future I suspect that 24MP will be the last major pixel upgrade for some time in the APS-C market. That's not to say that other revolutionary technology will not come along and change the format in some way we haven't imagined yet.

ElJamoquio · 07-24-2012, 08:28 PM

Originally posted by bossa

Unless lens technology makes a few large revolutionary leaps in the near future I suspect that 24MP will be the last major pixel upgrade for some time in the APS-C market. That's not to say that other revolutionary technology will not come along and change the format in some way we haven't imagined yet.

Pentax could implement some sort of foveon multiple-channel-per-location (in actual-APS-C). Right now I wouldn't trade the Sony sensor for the Foveon things could improve.

rawr · 07-24-2012, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by bossa

24MP will be the last major pixel upgrade for some time in the APS-C market

Famous last words

The technology doesn't need to be revolutionary, just intelligently evolutionary. Sony's EXMOR sensor technology is a case in point. It has allowed APS-C (and even Micro 4/3, in the case of the OM-D) to move into megapixel density and IQ performance territory people would not have thought possible on APS-C even a few years ago. And as I doubt that Sony has exhausted all of the potential of that technology on APS-C, there may not be any need for anything revolutionary to happen (yet).

(As an afterthought, if you scaled up the 1-inch 20MB Sony RX-100 sensor to APS-C, you would probably end up with 40MB+ on APS-C...)

Last edited by rawr; 07-24-2012 at 08:45 PM.

bossa · 07-24-2012, 09:46 PM

I was thinking more about limitations of lens technology than sensors.

PS.

I did NOT say the following:
"24MP will be the last major pixel upgrade for some time in the APS-C market"

I said this:
" I suspect that 24MP will be the last major pixel upgrade for some time in the APS-C market."

They mean two different things in my book

ElJamoquio · 07-24-2012, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by bossa

I was thinking more about limitations of lens technology than sensors.

I know.

I guess we could have single-grain-crystals or something with better controlled properties... but it just seems unlikely that we'll be able to drastically improve lens technology.

rawr · 07-24-2012, 11:57 PM

Yeah, but when you get into high MP territory, possible lens deficiencies are only one of your new worries, of course.

I mean, the first words out of the Nikon D800 technical guide are not 'get the bestest, sharpest lenses', but 'At the high resolutions offered by the D800/D800E, even the slightest camera motion can result in blur', and then they extensively discuss all of the craft techniques a photog (probably more used to the 12 MP of the D700) should use to get the best out of the D800's 36MP.

Clavius · 07-25-2012, 12:36 AM

Originally posted by rawr

I mean, the first words out of the Nikon D800 technical guide are not 'get the bestest, sharpest lenses', but 'At the high resolutions offered by the D800/D800E, even the slightest camera motion can result in blur', and then they extensively discuss all of the craft techniques a photog (probably more used to the 12 MP of the D700) should use to get the best out of the D800's 36MP.

So, if Pentax would utilize the same sensor combined with the inbody SR, they would actually have a edge over Nikon's D800?

Then with the WR and a lower price then the D800 it would be a real winner maybe.

bossa · 07-25-2012, 03:15 AM

Originally posted by Clavius

So, if Pentax would utilize the same sensor combined with the inbody SR, they would actually have a edge over Nikon's D800?

Then with the WR and a lower price then the D800 it would be a real winner maybe.

I can shoot my 70-200 VRII at 1/13th sec at 200mm with no visible shake. The Pentax SR is not in the same league unfortunately.

Alizarine · 07-25-2012, 03:38 AM

Originally posted by bossa

The Pentax SR is not in the same league unfortunately.

through your experience with the D800E, how more efficient is the Nikkor VR vs. the Pentax SR? Let's say the K-5?

bossa · 07-25-2012, 03:39 AM

Originally posted by Alizarine

through your experience with the D800E, how more efficient is the Nikkor VR vs. the Pentax SR? Let's say the K-5?

On that lens it's a whole other league. I can't vouch for other Nikon lenses though.

Sandy Hancock · 07-25-2012, 03:42 AM

Originally posted by bossa

I can shoot my 70-200 VRII at 1/13th sec at 200mm with no visible shake. The Pentax SR is not in the same league unfortunately.

Standing up, with no external support at all? No shake visible on a 36mp sensor compared to the same shot on a tripod? That I have to see.

07-24-2012, 09:46 PM	#83
bossa Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Adelaide Posts: 4,546	I was thinking more about limitations of lens technology than sensors. PS. I did NOT say the following: "24MP will be the last major pixel upgrade for some time in the APS-C market" I said this: " I suspect that 24MP will be the last major pixel upgrade for some time in the APS-C market." They mean two different things in my book Last edited by bossa; 07-24-2012 at 09:51 PM.

07-25-2012, 12:36 AM	#86
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Originally posted by rawr I mean, the first words out of the Nikon D800 technical guide are not 'get the bestest, sharpest lenses', but 'At the high resolutions offered by the D800/D800E, even the slightest camera motion can result in blur', and then they extensively discuss all of the craft techniques a photog (probably more used to the 12 MP of the D700) should use to get the best out of the D800's 36MP. So, if Pentax would utilize the same sensor combined with the inbody SR, they would actually have a edge over Nikon's D800? Then with the WR and a lower price then the D800 it would be a real winner maybe. Last edited by Clavius; 07-25-2012 at 12:47 AM.

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07-24-2012, 07:54 PM	#76
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	why can an APS-C camera be appreciably smaller than a FF?

07-24-2012, 08:03 PM	#77
Edvinas Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kaunas Posts: 1,458	Originally posted by sb in ak Maybe, though I don't think APS-C is dead anytime soon. Unless the EVF tech gets amazing, I think there will be a group of folks who are looking for a smaller than FF camera with a real VF. Look and Pentax film cameras like MZ series. They are even smaller than K-5. Yes, digital will add some size (DSLR will always be thicker because of electronics behind the sensor and back LCD) but end result shouldn't much larger than K-5. Let's wait and see what size Nikon D600 will be, I'm sure that it will be only slightly larger than D7000 and smaller than D300.

07-24-2012, 08:12 PM	#78
bossa Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Adelaide Posts: 4,546	Originally posted by JohnBee ...the K-3 will follow in the K-5 footsteps in the sense that it will give current FF's a run for their money. And that includes the D800 also. Frankly, the D800 produces levels of detail I never expected to see in a DSLR. It's like opening a door into reality by comparison to what I'd been using prior - it's 'scary'. Any camera that can give that one a "run for its money" might well be worth waiting for in the short term but I suspect the wait to be awhile yet.

07-24-2012, 08:19 PM	#79
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by Edvinas those two APS-C cameras in the middle layer (other two are already FF) will be pushed out by cheap FF DSLR(s) While newer, cheaper FF DSLRs may come onto the scene and have an impact, APS-C sensor technology will also keep moving forward too, of course. All the technology movement isn't going to happen just in FF. Any advances in price/performance in FF will likely be matched (or exceeded, due to cheaper fabbing) by APS-C in future. I for one like my 1.5 crop factor and wish Pentax APS-C a bright future.

07-24-2012, 08:22 PM	#80
bossa Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Adelaide Posts: 4,546	Originally posted by rawr While newer, cheaper FF DSLRs may come onto the scene and have an impact, APS-C sensor technology will also keep moving forward too, of course. All the technology movement isn't going to happen just in FF. Any advances in price/performance in FF will likely be matched (or exceeded, due to cheaper fabbing) by APS-C in future. I for one like my 1.5 crop factor and wish Pentax APS-C a bright future. Unless lens technology makes a few large revolutionary leaps in the near future I suspect that 24MP will be the last major pixel upgrade for some time in the APS-C market. That's not to say that other revolutionary technology will not come along and change the format in some way we haven't imagined yet.

07-24-2012, 08:28 PM	#81
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by bossa Unless lens technology makes a few large revolutionary leaps in the near future I suspect that 24MP will be the last major pixel upgrade for some time in the APS-C market. That's not to say that other revolutionary technology will not come along and change the format in some way we haven't imagined yet. Pentax could implement some sort of foveon multiple-channel-per-location (in actual-APS-C). Right now I wouldn't trade the Sony sensor for the Foveon things could improve.

07-24-2012, 08:37 PM	#82
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by bossa 24MP will be the last major pixel upgrade for some time in the APS-C market Famous last words The technology doesn't need to be revolutionary, just intelligently evolutionary. Sony's EXMOR sensor technology is a case in point. It has allowed APS-C (and even Micro 4/3, in the case of the OM-D) to move into megapixel density and IQ performance territory people would not have thought possible on APS-C even a few years ago. And as I doubt that Sony has exhausted all of the potential of that technology on APS-C, there may not be any need for anything revolutionary to happen (yet). (As an afterthought, if you scaled up the 1-inch 20MB Sony RX-100 sensor to APS-C, you would probably end up with 40MB+ on APS-C...) Last edited by rawr; 07-24-2012 at 08:45 PM.

07-24-2012, 10:28 PM	#84
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by bossa I was thinking more about limitations of lens technology than sensors. I know. I guess we could have single-grain-crystals or something with better controlled properties... but it just seems unlikely that we'll be able to drastically improve lens technology.

07-24-2012, 11:57 PM	#85
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Yeah, but when you get into high MP territory, possible lens deficiencies are only one of your new worries, of course. I mean, the first words out of the Nikon D800 technical guide are not 'get the bestest, sharpest lenses', but 'At the high resolutions offered by the D800/D800E, even the slightest camera motion can result in blur', and then they extensively discuss all of the craft techniques a photog (probably more used to the 12 MP of the D700) should use to get the best out of the D800's 36MP.

07-25-2012, 03:15 AM	#87
bossa Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Adelaide Posts: 4,546	Originally posted by Clavius So, if Pentax would utilize the same sensor combined with the inbody SR, they would actually have a edge over Nikon's D800? Then with the WR and a lower price then the D800 it would be a real winner maybe. I can shoot my 70-200 VRII at 1/13th sec at 200mm with no visible shake. The Pentax SR is not in the same league unfortunately.

07-25-2012, 03:38 AM	#88
Alizarine Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Manila Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,185	Originally posted by bossa The Pentax SR is not in the same league unfortunately. through your experience with the D800E, how more efficient is the Nikkor VR vs. the Pentax SR? Let's say the K-5?

07-25-2012, 03:39 AM	#89
bossa Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Adelaide Posts: 4,546	Originally posted by Alizarine through your experience with the D800E, how more efficient is the Nikkor VR vs. the Pentax SR? Let's say the K-5? On that lens it's a whole other league. I can't vouch for other Nikon lenses though.

07-25-2012, 03:42 AM	#90
Sandy Hancock Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Adelaide Hills, South Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,272	Originally posted by bossa I can shoot my 70-200 VRII at 1/13th sec at 200mm with no visible shake. The Pentax SR is not in the same league unfortunately. Standing up, with no external support at all? No shake visible on a 36mp sensor compared to the same shot on a tripod? That I have to see.