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01-30-2008, 09:19 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by txbonds Quote
I don't get some of the replies to FF.

And the reason people want full frame isn't only to do with perceived increase in image quality, as it's also to do with proper lens perspective and correct focal length. Most of us that are over 20 years old grew up shooting film and also using 35mm. We are used to a set of measurement, sort of like metric versus standard. Problem is that aps-c doesn't just switch the system, it throws a crazy wrench in the mix that makes none of the focal lengths or perspectives make sense. Only system I've seen that tried to combat this is Olympus, but even they use effective focal lengths still.

So, we want 35mm for simplicity, for proper perspective, for reasonable wide solutions that don't skew perspective, etc.
There is no "correct" focal lenght or "proper" perspective. What if I say 35mm was a bad decision? It could have been other film format, then the "normal" would be something else.

Just like the 35mm film frame, APS-C was choosen for good reasons - a balance between practical size and image quality. For me it is a very welcome change.

Crazy wrench? Don't panic, it's just a 1.5x crop factor. Everything else is exactly the same!

01-30-2008, 09:27 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by txbonds Quote
I don't get some of the replies to FF.

If pentax sticks a full frame sensor into a camera body, the FA Limiteds are not suddenly going to double in size.
I laugh at the "big heavy FF camera" argument too!

The size and weight of camera has little to do with the sliver of CCD or CMOS inside it. Look at the Nikon D1/D2 -- HUGE cameras, with the same size imagers as the D40. The D3 isn't big because it's full frame, it's big because it's a D(1/2/3) series camera.

My smallest, lightest zoom is my FAJ 18-35mm. Full frame, super wide. (I know, it's only superwide on a 35mm body )

However, I am more than ever thinking that Pentax might resurrect the 645D to fight for a space above Canikon. Depends how cheaply Samsung can start turning out those MF CMOS chips!
01-30-2008, 09:45 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by FotoPete Quote
Hmm Pentax will have to resign at least some of their lenses or start cranking out DFA/FA lenses
They will, in the not too distant future.

Stephen
01-30-2008, 10:03 AM   #19
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I know there isn't a correct format per say, but the current lenses were all designed around 35mm film, and the new aps-c lenses still reference 35mm film. It drives me bonkers putting a lens onto an aps-c lens and not being able to shoot it like it was designed. That's been the biggest problem I had with the 31 limited and the primary reason I sold it. Had it been on a full frame camera, it would have been a wonderful 31mm lens, not a normalish 46mm perspective.

Make sense that way? I, for one, want to use the lens based on the focal length it says it is. Crop factor, schmop factor. Just drives me crazy.

For example, if we are only going to have DA lenses and aps-c sensors, why not call the DA 21 the DA 32.5, and the DA 40, the DA 60, and the DA 70, the DA 105. I mean, that's the effective focal length you are shooting, but with the funky unquantifyable perspective of the original focal length of the lens design.

Wouldn't it be nice to put a 30 on your camera, and actually get a 30, with perspective of a 30?

Thats all............





QuoteOriginally posted by ricardobeat Quote
There is no "correct" focal lenght or "proper" perspective. What if I say 35mm was a bad decision? It could have been other film format, then the "normal" would be something else.

Just like the 35mm film frame, APS-C was choosen for good reasons - a balance between practical size and image quality. For me it is a very welcome change.

Crazy wrench? Don't panic, it's just a 1.5x crop factor. Everything else is exactly the same!


01-30-2008, 10:16 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by txbonds Quote
I know there isn't a correct format per say, but the current lenses were all designed around 35mm film, and the new aps-c lenses still reference 35mm film. It drives me bonkers putting a lens onto an aps-c lens and not being able to shoot it like it was designed. That's been the biggest problem I had with the 31 limited and the primary reason I sold it. Had it been on a full frame camera, it would have been a wonderful 31mm lens, not a normalish 46mm perspective.

Make sense that way? I, for one, want to use the lens based on the focal length it says it is. Crop factor, schmop factor. Just drives me crazy.

For example, if we are only going to have DA lenses and aps-c sensors, why not call the DA 21 the DA 32.5, and the DA 40, the DA 60, and the DA 70, the DA 105. I mean, that's the effective focal length you are shooting, but with the funky unquantifyable perspective of the original focal length of the lens design.

Wouldn't it be nice to put a 30 on your camera, and actually get a 30, with perspective of a 30?

Thats all............
buy a 20, there is your 30, done deal.
01-30-2008, 10:41 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
buy a 20, there is your 30, done deal.
Not quite. The perspective is slightly different than a 31 on full frame. The aperature is much narrower. The lens and the result is not the same thing.

If you don't believe me, go find someone with a FF and compare. Duplo (Thomas) who just got the D3 even commented on noticing differences in perspective. Even when focal length and effective focal length were the same, the perspectives are not the same.
01-30-2008, 10:57 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by txbonds Quote
and the new aps-c lenses still reference 35mm film.
Really? I don't see any evidence of that. 40mm is 40mm. The focal lengths of new lenses do mirror the traditional FOV of previous lens lines, but it is not a reference to 35mm film, but the FOV we are used to.

Same if you want to shoot Medium Format - you have to get used to a new set of focal lengths.

QuoteQuote:
Make sense that way? I, for one, want to use the lens based on the focal length it says it is.
Not really. You SHOULD use lens based on focal length it says it is.
You are just used to the 35mm film way; and you are still converting using crop factor in your mind - and you shouldn't. New users don't have the same problem. They learn APS-C focal lengths from the start.

QuoteQuote:
For example, if we are only going to have DA lenses and aps-c sensors, why not call the DA 21 the DA 32.5, and the DA 40, the DA 60, and the DA 70, the DA 105. I mean, that's the effective focal length you are shooting, but with the funky unquantifyable perspective of the original focal length of the lens design.
And that's wrong. 21 is 21mm, no matter what sensor size you put the lens in.
Would you do the same and relabel all the Medium Format lenses? Why do people not having problem when they move from 35mm film to Medium Format film?

QuoteQuote:
Wouldn't it be nice to put a 30 on your camera, and actually get a 30, with perspective of a 30?
You ARE getting a 30. Just a different FOV.
It's like unit conversion, going from imperial units to metric units. Once you get used to the new system, it's second nature.

So instead of doing conversion in your mind every time, try learning the new "units".
Say you are used to the traditional primes of 28, 50, 135, 200....
In the APS-C world, it would be 18, 35, 90, 135.... and you can use those as reference point in your mind.
01-30-2008, 10:59 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by txbonds Quote
Not quite. The perspective is slightly different than a 31 on full frame. The aperature is much narrower. The lens and the result is not the same thing.
And that's OK. Why do we have to duplicate the 35mm experience?
There are pros and cons of the APS-C and it IS different from the 35mm.

01-30-2008, 11:10 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tbear Quote
Also, I think a FF sensor would benefit Pentax more than any other company. Here is why: Pentax has millions of old 35mm film lenses still in circulation. Can you imagine being able to use these vintage lenses on a state of the art Pentax/Samsung FF sensor?
Actually, your statement should be that a FF sensor would benefit Pentax USERS more than any other company. Because, it doesn't benefit Pentax as a company as much. They would much prefer you to buy new lenses than old used lenses.

QuoteQuote:
I see some people panicking that because Pentax is making a DA* 30mm, that this will spell the end of lenses like the FA 31mm limited. Hopefully, Pentax will be smarter than that.
Pentax would be smart to put the effort into where the money is - and FF ain't it, yet.

Why taking risk and fight over 2% of the pie? Don't you think Pentax would be wiser to attack and grab a larger share of the other 98% of the market?
01-30-2008, 11:10 AM   #25
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At the end of the day, does it matter if there is a FF or not?

While there may be some market for it, and while my lens collection has only 1 APS-C limited lens, and 13 full frame lenses, (I still use film also) I actually like the ASP-C sensor, and it makes a lot of sense for 99% of the market.

Additionally if you go full frame, what will you do for the pixle count. A full frame using the same technology as the K20 would be 31 MP.

This requires more processing more batteries, more everything,

Who needs that resolution. Most magazines print in 300 DPI or less which is 8.4 MP for a full page.

I would rather see improvements in noise, and ISO (both higher, and lower) etc, within the ASP-C sensor. As time progresses technology will get there, that is where the effort should go
01-30-2008, 11:42 AM   #26
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I am entirely uninterested in a full frame dslr. APSC along side medium format digital is more than enough for me.
01-30-2008, 12:08 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by txbonds Quote
For example, if we are only going to have DA lenses and aps-c sensors, why not call the DA 21 the DA 32.5, and the DA 40, the DA 60, and the DA 70, the DA 105. I mean, that's the effective focal length you are shooting, but with the funky unquantifyable perspective of the original focal length of the lens design.

Wouldn't it be nice to put a 30 on your camera, and actually get a 30, with perspective of a 30?

Thats all............
IIRC, The focal length of a lens is based on its point of infinity focus.

To give you an example, my 210mm lens on my linhof focuses at infinity when it's 210mm from the film plane. It doesn't matter if I'm using a 4x5" sheet of film or 35mm film. The only change that affects the angle of view is the size of film I load in the camera.

The lens manufacturers *could* label a lens with it's intended angle of view based on the format the lens is intended for, but focal length has been around far too long to change that standard now.
01-30-2008, 12:23 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tbear Quote
Sony just announced a 24.8MP CMOS FF sensor that will be used in their pro model later this year. Hopefully, Pentax is already working hard with Samsung to develop a FF sensor. With everything else being equal, there can be no doubt that a FF sensor will produce higher IQ and lower noise than an APS-C sensor. Also, I think a FF sensor would benefit Pentax more than any other company. Here is why: Pentax has millions of old 35mm film lenses still in circulation. Can you imagine being able to use these vintage lenses on a state of the art Pentax/Samsung FF sensor? I see some people panicking that because Pentax is making a DA* 30mm, that this will spell the end of lenses like the FA 31mm limited. Hopefully, Pentax will be smarter than that.

Ted
I cannot wait for a Pentax K1D with a 28mp full frame sensor that can do 1.5 fps. LOL.
01-30-2008, 12:25 PM   #29
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If the quality and detail of a shot can be duplicated across APS-C and 35mm, then I could care less which is which. Quite frankly, I'd rather have the crop factor because I can stay back a bit when shooting birds and wildlife and still be 'close'.

If there is that big a difference (and I don't see one between a 5D and other cameras) except that the 5D is excellent in NR (but so is the 30D which is not FF), then I might be interested as a wedding shooter.

Then again, I am one of those whiners that wanted more fps/faster AF in the K20 that others said wasn't necessary! Seems that photographic needs are in the eye of the beholder. I wonder if (all references being removed) a magazine editor can distinguish between a shot taken with a FF sensor and one with an APS-C sensor...or can distinguish between cameras for that matter. It would seem that ISO performance might be the determinant factor.
01-30-2008, 12:32 PM   #30
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FF NOT on the current horizon

And I for one don't particularily care. The delusional value of FF (Increased DR) never achieved the proportion it should have for the size difference. The high iso noise reduction can be dealt with at the APS-C level. Crop factor and "true" mm lenses, well this is more a personal choice anyways.
The man behind the curtain speaks.........
Pentax plan calls for higher-grade SLR | Underexposed - CNET News.com

But don't expect a full-frame Pentax, at least for the time being, Carlson said. Asked whether it was in the plans, he said, "At this point I would say no. The lenses are designed for the APS-C format," Carlson said. However, he qualified his remarks with a disclaimer: "What will happen in two years? Who knows."
Of course your all invited to wait 2 years or so. Unforunately if you translate Pentax years into human years, thats at least a decade. Ben could start the rumors now though
Besides FF can't hold a candle to MF, now or in the future.........
Phase One, which uses Kodak CCD sensors, agrees. "For the 50- to 80-megapixel sensors on the horizon, we still feel the CCD will be the best way forward," said PhaseOne Chief Executive Henrik Hakonsson.
New CMOS sensors catching on in cameras | Underexposed - CNET News.com

Last edited by jeffkrol; 01-30-2008 at 12:38 PM.
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