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01-31-2008, 08:56 AM   #16
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The paint isn't even dry on the K20D, few if any of us has actually touched one and we're already drooling over the next model. Sheesh!

As with other things in life, It ain't how big your "sensor" is it how you use what you have!


Last edited by MRRiley; 01-31-2008 at 10:26 AM.
02-01-2008, 01:24 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by MRRiley Quote
The paint isn't even dry on the K20D, few if any of us has actually touched one and we're already drooling over the next model. Sheesh!

As with other things in life, It ain't how big your "sensor" is it how you use what you have!
Totally agree. Well, I guess we are all humans
02-01-2008, 07:01 AM   #18
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"I don't understand this obsession with full-frame at all, IQ is more important and the photographer's satisfaction with his own work more important still than how big the sensor is..."[QUOTE=welshwizard645;167375]

Precisely, IQ is more important! I don't think anyone can dispute that a FF sensor is CAPABLE of better IQ than ANY APS-C sensor.
02-01-2008, 07:40 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Matjazz Quote
I too hope that Pentax doesn't catch the full frame flu.
The APS-C sized camera is smaller and sensor technology is going crazy. I bet in the next two years we will see a major improvement in sensor technology (Samsung/Pentax) that will make the new Samsung/Pentax look poor by comparison. I for one don't want to carry around a camera and lenses the size of footballs, plus I like the 1.5 image factor for tele work.

I was just at a trade show and saw a number of guys with BIG white lenses, and HUGE cameras. Have any of you picked up those elephants, I have and I don't like it one bit. They don't feel good to me.

If I really want big frame I'll go to the new Pentax D645 when it comes out.



wll

02-01-2008, 08:16 AM   #20
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[quote=Tbear;168391]"I don't understand this obsession with full-frame at all, IQ is more important and the photographer's satisfaction with his own work more important still than how big the sensor is..."
QuoteOriginally posted by welshwizard645 Quote

Precisely, IQ is more important! I don't think anyone can dispute that a FF sensor is CAPABLE of better IQ than ANY APS-C sensor.
But MF is CAPABLE of even better IQ, and Linhoff backs are better still - whats your point? 95% of camera buyers have a budget $1500 or less, and 90% are $1000 or less. I doubt it is actually possible to build a profitable FF SLR for $2000 so why should Pentax try if they know they cant?

There has been NO downward trend in FF prices in 8 years with the exception of the 5D. The Kodak 14n digital cost the same in 2002 as the D3 does now ($5000). Note the 5D was only cheap because it used a old sensor from the 1DS, and a cheap mid-range body and even then it had to be discounted to sell.

If the new Sony comes in at around $3500 it will be a huge achievement, but who would buy a $3500 Sony camera? Have you seen the lens prices? If they discount it it will eat into A700 sales and sell at a huge loss. They will probably make a few and sell it as a loss leader to highlight the brand and thats about it.

Sony are gambling, and so are Nikon. I think at least one of them will live to regret it terribly. I cant see Canon 1D users migrating to the D3 (2k more and those lenses!!) and I cant see Nikon D2X users upgrading to it either (2k more and bigger lenses). In fact I think its a fatuous, pointless tour de force that everyone will aspire to and few will own.
02-01-2008, 08:51 AM   #21
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[QUOTE=*isteve;168444]
QuoteOriginally posted by Tbear Quote
"I don't understand this obsession with full-frame at all, IQ is more important and the photographer's satisfaction with his own work more important still than how big the sensor is..."

But MF is CAPABLE of even better IQ, and Linhoff backs are better still - whats your point? 95% of camera buyers have a budget $1500 or less, and 90% are $1000 or less. I doubt it is actually possible to build a profitable FF SLR for $2000 so why should Pentax try if they know they cant?

There has been NO downward trend in FF prices in 8 years with the exception of the 5D. The Kodak 14n digital cost the same in 2002 as the D3 does now ($5000). Note the 5D was only cheap because it used a old sensor from the 1DS, and a cheap mid-range body and even then it had to be discounted to sell.

If the new Sony comes in at around $3500 it will be a huge achievement, but who would buy a $3500 Sony camera? Have you seen the lens prices? If they discount it it will eat into A700 sales and sell at a huge loss. They will probably make a few and sell it as a loss leader to highlight the brand and thats about it.

Sony are gambling, and so are Nikon. I think at least one of them will live to regret it terribly. I cant see Canon 1D users migrating to the D3 (2k more and those lenses!!) and I cant see Nikon D2X users upgrading to it either (2k more and bigger lenses). In fact I think its a fatuous, pointless tour de force that everyone will aspire to and few will own.
10 years ago, if someone had predicted there would be $600 10 MP DSLRs they would have been labeled a nutbag. Don't be so quick to write the obituary for the semi-affordable (i.e. $2000) high performance FF DLSR of the near future. Do I have some kind of crystal ball? Of course not. But looking back at the stunning pace of constantly improving technology with decreasing costs, I don't think one needs a crystal ball to know that such an event is certainly possible.
02-01-2008, 03:49 PM   #22
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I personally think that Pentax will adopt the FF format.

Ben
02-01-2008, 04:24 PM   #23
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Hi Ben

Re your sentiments:

QuoteQuote:
I personally think that Pentax will adopt the FF format.
Blimey, I hope you haven't just inadvertently broken your existing NDA agreement.......ooops !
You DO realise that the choice of punishments is endless.......would you perhaps prefer ritual disembowelment or maybe being fired from a C****n ! Goodness, perish the thought, I mean possibly a N***n at a pinch, but a C****n, absolutely no way,
Hosť......gawd 'elp us all......

Best regards
Richard


Last edited by Confused; 02-01-2008 at 06:09 PM.
02-01-2008, 04:38 PM   #24
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What is the obsession with FF? I don't understand it. I realize that lenses have gotten narrower in their FOV, but that only means that we need lenses with smaller focal lengths to offset that. Really, that's all it is. In addition, FF technically means larger lenses, which I'm not in favor of. Yes, I like a big camera, but I don't like lenses that look like airplane jets and feel like them too! I think the 645 D option seems like a nice option for people looking for something like FF.
02-01-2008, 05:21 PM   #25
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sigh, here we go again...
Lets first get the K20D in our hands.
02-01-2008, 05:40 PM   #26
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Hi tux08902

Re your query:
QuoteQuote:
What is the obsession with FF? I don't understand it.
I'm afraid it all stems from a rather tortured upbringing.....lol ! You see in the 'good old days of yore' when damsels were often in in distress, mainly because real men inexplicably disappeared into darkrooms for long periods without adequate explanation, a few of us vaguely remember 35mm SLR film cameras. Not altogether surprisingly some of us 'olduns' became distinctly peed-off when we discovered that the sensors in our shiny new DSLR replacements had mysteriously shrunk without anybody letting on about it ! Roll forward a couple of decades until C****n finally decided to come up with the full-monty, except that either most of us poor saps didn't have the necessary sponduliks in the bank account or 'her-indoors' probably needed a new dress for the weekend......well, you kinda get the picture, or roughly 2/3rds of it with an APS-C sensor. I hope that explains the withdrawal symptoms ?

Best regards
Richard

Last edited by Confused; 02-01-2008 at 05:50 PM.
02-01-2008, 07:54 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by tux08902 Quote
What is the obsession with FF? I don't understand it. I realize that lenses have gotten narrower in their FOV, but that only means that we need lenses with smaller focal lengths to offset that. Really, that's all it is. In addition, FF technically means larger lenses, which I'm not in favor of. Yes, I like a big camera, but I don't like lenses that look like airplane jets and feel like them too! I think the 645 D option seems like a nice option for people looking for something like FF.
But you can't really offset the loss of image size with smaller focal lengths, since you get an image of reduced magnification, and therefore more apparent distance between foreground and background in your picture, greater depth of field, etc. It's not the same. Further, you reach a point at which you can't get sufficient angle of view without introducing lots of distortion, because the focal lengths necessary become so short (e.g., the field of view of a 24mm lens, dramatic in FF 35mm format but not very distorted, requires use of a 16mm lens in APS-C, which is fisheye territory).

Oh, and what Confused said
02-01-2008, 09:13 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by jbcampbell Quote
Here's the link...

Pentax plan calls for higher-grade SLR | Underexposed - CNET News.com

Quote from article:
"But don't expect a full-frame Pentax, at least for the time being, Carlson said. Asked whether it was in the plans, he said, "At this point I would say no. The lenses are designed for the APS-C format," Carlson said.""
If I were Pentax, I wouldn't let people know I have a full frame in the pipelines until I am ready to ship it. Nikon did that. No one at Nikon said anything about a Nikon D3 until it was ready to ship. Announcing it any earlier would slow APS-C camera sales, specifically the D2X. NASA put in an order for a bunch of D2X cameras. They probably would have waited and bought D3 cameras had it been announced sooner. It may also affect DX lens sales, since DX lenses are not usable on full frame cameras without cropping either in camera or later in the computer. Since Pentax is only selling DA lenses for the most part, it would be silly for Pentax to proclaim that it is working on a full frame.
02-01-2008, 09:22 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
I personally think that Pentax will adopt the FF format.

Ben
Either that or Pentax will be fighting for scraps in the low end market. High end APS-C is a segment that will disappear. The price of the $1299 Canon 40D is dropping. As soon as Pentax announced its 14mp K20D will sell for $1299, Sony brought out the 14mp A350 which will sell for $900. It may take a few years, but APS-C DSLR cameras are not going to sell for more than $1,000. In a few years, only full frame DSLR cameras can be sold for more than $1,000 because there is just too much competition in the APS-C market.
02-01-2008, 09:53 PM   #30
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FF sensors require FF lenses that are extremely expensive if you want a sharp image all the way to the edge.

Tom
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