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09-09-2012, 04:27 PM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom S. Quote
If, what you say is true about the bean counters, then they should see the potential for growth for a company that is a distant 4th in the DSLR field. And in order for that potential to come true, they will have to offer a better product, or a similar product for a lower price, either of which is a win-win situation. If on the other hand, you meant profit takers, they have made a mistake since I believe Hoya already rode that horse into the ground.

I believe the next 12 months will show us which is the case.
Bean Counters have destroyed many companies, because they can only see short term profits and R&D (research & development), which is where true product improvement and innovation comes from cuts profits. R&D is the most expensive part of new designs and can take many years to recover the costs...... a company that is only interested in a quick value sees no value in R&D, usually until its to late... I am a electronics engineer (retired) and I can personally tell you the "distaste" we have for "bean counters".... all they care about is profit and if they can build an inferior product, fooling the public, to produce a greater profit they will every time.... and nothing is cheaper than rebranding someone else's product.... no R&D costs... very little financial risk to them and no incentive to produce a better product, but very high profits. Besides if you only offer a short warranty, you'll be off the hook for that inferior product just as quickly.

I worked for a aerospace company for decades.... it got bought out by General Motors in the mid 80s, after a judge ordered the sale because it was owned by a non-profit company dedicated to medical reseach, while getting its entire funding from the company... the judge claimed was illegal.... the company was booming and the largest valued California owned corporation... it produced 3/4s of the world satellites and more missiles than every other missile manufacturer in the world combined.... the company was know for being the most innovative aerospace company in the world and was a very prestigious place to work with incredible pay, benifits and job security... the company was adding about 9,000 employees each year for many, many years... the "bean counters" running General Motors saw very little value in R&D or even Quality Control because it cut into quick profits.... immediately the lay-offs started, quality control first and then the R&D Department.... the facility I worked at was entirely dedicated to R&D with over 9,000 employees....

But then the "bean counters" took control of the company..... in just a few years the facility was closed down and gone was R&D.... gone was most quality control... gone were our sales... but then we all know General Motors' record.... they did the same to their own company, their cars and they drove themselves into the ground, after once being the biggest company in the world... now they claim to be making a profit again... only after the government bailed them out with 10s of billions of dollars of my son's future.... which they neglect to mention 10s of billions of dollars will never be paid back to us, while the stock American's hold is almost worthless once again as the company sales decline once again without additional bail-outs.....

So "bean counters" should scare you! Not add confidence in Pentax.... "profits before quality always", is a "bean Counters" motto!!!!! Ricoh has already had close to a year to prove itself.... this thread would not even exist except for the "bean counters"........ drop the price of the camera to grab our gonads... then you have a captive market to exploit huge profits from the customer with overpriced products, required to operate with that cheap camera sale! Like one person put it so elegantly put it, "sell them cheap printer, you then have us by the gonads and then stick it to us with expensive ink cartridges"!!!!!

09-09-2012, 04:35 PM   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
Welcome aboard!
Thank you and hello!
09-09-2012, 04:52 PM   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
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Thank you and hello!
09-09-2012, 04:55 PM   #139
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lazarus Quote
Bean Counters have destroyed many companies, because they can only see short term profits and R&D (research & development), which is where true product improvement and innovation comes from cuts profits. R&D is the most expensive part of new designs and can take many years to recover the costs...... a company that is only interested in a quick value sees no value in R&D, usually until its to late... I am a electronics engineer (retired) and I can personally tell you the "distaste" we have for "bean counters".... all they care about is profit and if they can build an inferior product, fooling the public, to produce a greater profit they will every time.... and nothing is cheaper than rebranding someone else's product.... no R&D costs... very little financial risk to them and no incentive to produce a better product, but very high profits. Besides if you only offer a short warranty, you'll be off the hook for that inferior product just as quickly.

I worked for a aerospace company for decades.... it got bought out by General Motors in the mid 80s, after a judge ordered the sale because it was owned by a non-profit company dedicated to medical reseach, while getting its entire funding from the company... the judge claimed was illegal.... the company was booming and the largest valued California owned corporation... it produced 3/4s of the world satellites and more missiles than every other missile manufacturer in the world combined.... the company was know for being the most innovative aerospace company in the world and was a very prestigious place to work with incredible pay, benifits and job security... the company was adding about 9,000 employees each year for many, many years... the "bean counters" running General Motors saw very little value in R&D or even Quality Control because it cut into quick profits.... immediately the lay-offs started, quality control first and then the R&D Department.... the facility I worked at was entirely dedicated to R&D with over 9,000 employees....

But then the "bean counters" took control of the company..... in just a few years the facility was closed down and gone was R&D.... gone was most quality control... gone were our sales... but then we all know General Motors' record.... they did the same to their own company, their cars and they drove themselves into the ground, after once being the biggest company in the world... now they claim to be making a profit again... only after the government bailed them out with 10s of billions of dollars of my son's future.... which they neglect to mention 10s of billions of dollars will never be paid back to us, while the stock American's hold is almost worthless once again as the company sales decline once again without additional bail-outs.....

So "bean counters" should scare you! Not add confidence in Pentax.... "profits before quality always", is a "bean Counters" motto!!!!! Ricoh has already had close to a year to prove itself.... this thread would not even exist except for the "bean counters"........ drop the price of the camera to grab our gonads... then you have a captive market to exploit huge profits from the customer with overpriced products, required to operate with that cheap camera sale! Like one person put it so elegantly put it, "sell them cheap printer, you then have us by the gonads and then stick it to us with expensive ink cartridges"!!!!!
A bit more strident than my actual post, but I appreciate that you think I was onto something.

09-09-2012, 05:38 PM   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
A bit more strident than my actual post, but I appreciate that you think I was onto something.
I didn't realize you had wrote it.... I should have went back and got an exact quote.... but what the heck... whats a little more "color" going to hurt?!!!!!

I do think there should be a thread started on new sales lost over this repeat of a rather dumb policy!

Now for Pentax & Ricoh's benefit... you lost the sale of a Pentax DA* 60-250mm f4 ED on last Friday... when I went to B&H to order it and saw the new ridiculous "big sale rebate" price.... no reflection on B&H which I have nothing but good things to say about them... I said the heck with Pentax.... if I have to spend $2,000 for the lens, I just as well save my money till the new "Sigma 120-300mm f2.8 EX DG OS APO HSM AF" comes out in a Pentax mount (B&H list it for Pentax).... it may be more money, but it too is weather resistant a faster lens, longer lens, made in Japan and has a full 4 year warranty.... and it does not waste a overlap in focal length with my "Pentax smc DA* 50-135mm f2.8 ED (IF) SDM" of 65mm!

And oh yeah.... B&H will get the even a bigger sale.... only Pentax/Ricoh looses out!
09-09-2012, 05:41 PM   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lazarus Quote
I didn't realize you had wrote it.... I should have went back and got an exact quote.... but what the heck... whats a little more "color" going to hurt?!!!!!

I do think there should be a thread started on new sales lost over this repeat of a rather dumb policy!

Now for Pentax & Ricoh's benefit... you lost the sale of a Pentax DA* 60-250mm f4 ED on last Friday... when I went to B&H to order it and saw the new ridiculous "big sale rebate" price.... no reflection on B&H which I have nothing but good things to say about them... I said the heck with Pentax.... if I have to spend $2,000 for the lens, I just as well save my money till the new "Sigma 120-300mm f2.8 EX DG OS APO HSM AF" comes out in a Pentax mount (B&H list it for Pentax).... it may be more money, but it too is weather resistant a faster lens, longer lens, made in Japan and has a full 4 year warranty.... and it does not waste a overlap in focal length with my "Pentax smc DA* 50-135mm f2.8 ED (IF) SDM" of 65mm!

And oh yeah.... B&H will get the even a bigger sale.... only Pentax/Ricoh looses out!
I tried to boycott Pentax-Ricoh for new lens purchases with a thread here. All it got me was ridicule, being reported for being disruptive, and a lot of pain. Do as you wish, but understand that there are those who believe that Ricoh is the savior of their camera company. My current policy is to only buy when the price is reasonable. That means Tamron and used Pentax lenses mostly. I did purchased a new DA15 limited for a great price (less than they go for used here regularly), but it hasn't been absurdly jacked up either like many of the SDM lenses.
09-09-2012, 05:53 PM   #142
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Just an FYI... I just posted this on the Price Watch forum but I just ordered the DA 35 f/2.8 Limited from Adorama (via Adam's link) for $529 -definitely a pre-MAP price. The lens is listed at $699 like everywhere else when you find the lens on Adorama's site. But add it to your cart and the price is $529.
09-09-2012, 06:15 PM   #143
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
I tried to boycott Pentax-Ricoh for new lens purchases with a thread here. All it got me was ridicule, being reported for being disruptive, and a lot of pain. Do as you wish, but understand that there are those who believe that Ricoh is the savior of their camera company. My current policy is to only buy when the price is reasonable. I purchased a DA15 limited for a great price, but it hasn't been absurdly jacked up either like many of the SDM lenses.
I understand what you are saying and this is why I have been avoiding the word "boycott".... but it can only help them too, showing lost sales to waken Pentax/Ricoh concerning the foolishness in their pricing.... but at the same time they, the customer, needs to take a long hard look concerning Ricoh's commitment to Pentax and how Ricoh's policies are hurting the brand, not helping it stay in business... since Ricoh claims they are not making anymore profit on each sale with the MAD pricing, this only proves they are hindering future sales with the higher prices without any increase in profits to Ricoh.... this is not helping the brand stay alive.... less sales, less profit, even less R&D money to invest in the brand by creating more sales with a better product... we all become losers!

Us using their products is the best possible advertisement, but if others see that Pentax lenses are to expensive or a poor value to have mounted on our Pentax cameras.... that is very bad advertisement hurting future sales, which hurts the brand and us all!

09-09-2012, 06:18 PM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by Biro Quote
Just an FYI... I just posted this on the Price Watch forum but I just ordered the DA 35 f/2.8 Limited from Adorama (via Adam's link) for $529 -definitely a pre-MAP price. The lens is listed at $699 like everywhere else when you find the lens on Adorama's site. But add it to your cart and the price is $529.
Good to know. I wonder what else shows up differently......
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