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09-07-2012, 03:12 PM   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
Me, I really, really, want a K-30 but I wouldn't exactly sneer at a K-5. Anyone who is THAT unhappy with theirs is free to send it my way..
I am quite sure you will be lucky, reading a few forums I get the feeling that many will abandon ship so ....

09-07-2012, 07:52 PM   #122
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Steve huff who has just seen all the sony offerings before photokina (I aint got a clue where he's at, probably some pre-party) but when asked about pentax...this is from his website...

Photokina 2012 – It may be the best ever! | STEVE HUFF PHOTOS

"I have no idea what is up their sleeve though I have heard some full frame rumblings from those who are involved with Pentax. But nothing I can report with any kind of certainty."
09-07-2012, 08:19 PM   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
CP+ you mean? Pentax has a history of introducing the *big* announcements at CP+.
Yup, wait 'til next year!

It's already started. Sigh ....
09-07-2012, 10:37 PM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
It seems to me - nо Photokina in 2013
QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
CP+ you mean? Pentax has a history of introducing the *big* announcements at CP+.
Apologies, by "announce a 2013 FF at Photokina", I meant announce development of a FF at this year's Photokina to be released in 2013. Essentially, I'm just hoping they throw us a more reliable bone than the mysterious "good things are coming" lines. With the D600 coming, I'm trying to figure out my kit moving forward - I can't afford two brands.

09-08-2012, 02:27 AM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffshaddix Quote
Apologies, by "announce a 2013 FF at Photokina", I meant announce development of a FF at this year's Photokina to be released in 2013. Essentially, I'm just hoping they throw us a more reliable bone than the mysterious "good things are coming" lines. With the D600 coming, I'm trying to figure out my kit moving forward - I can't afford two brands.
No offence to the people clamouring for a FF camera, but I wish Pentax would make a statement definitely one way or the other so everyone could move on. I don't personally get the obsession with FF. I could take great photos with my Chinon Ce4s, Pentax MZ5, K200 and K7. Yes, they all had limitations, but they could all provide great results if you took the limitations into account. Maybe I'm either too poor or too easily pleased?
09-08-2012, 02:50 AM - 1 Like   #126
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I'm really not at all bothered about pixel densities, dynamic range or whatever of APS-C vs 35mm frame sizes; every DSLR these days is better than my last DSLR, which was better than the one before that. Too many people get caught up in pixel-peeping debates. All I want is to be able to use my 31mm as a 31 and my 43mm as a 43 and enjoy taking photos that people buy. No one has ever complained about image quality.

I can live with my K-7 for sure, but I do think Pentax have a very grim future if they don't release a full frame dSLR in the next 6 months. Canon, Nikon and Sony are defining the market, and the market isn't driven by the minority who hang out on forums debating 'IQ' of 100% crops of brick walls. The market is still very much driven by the spec sheet and brand image. A friend of mine recently 'got into' photography and would consider nothing other than Canon and Nikon. He doesn't even know what an EV is and yet he was adamant that he wanted a brand he sees pros using, a camera with 8 fps for shooting landscapes, a big camera so that people will think he has a better camera than them.

All my talk of Limited lenses, weather sealing, Hyper Manual... wasn't of interest compared to brand and spec sheet. That's the mainstream consumer - the one who couldn't care less about pixel densities - the one who thinks "that's a brand I know and respect, that one has a bigger sensor, so it's better, I'll take that one".

I fear Pentax will try to ignore the direction the market is going and end up like Kodak or Nokia.
09-08-2012, 03:36 AM   #127
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Kodak ended up like this because they started making FF DSLRs. If only they stayed with APS-C/H!
09-08-2012, 03:48 AM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by fast50 Quote
I'm really not at all bothered about pixel densities, dynamic range or whatever of APS-C vs 35mm frame sizes; every DSLR these days is better than my last DSLR, which was better than the one before that. Too many people get caught up in pixel-peeping debates. All I want is to be able to use my 31mm as a 31 and my 43mm as a 43 and enjoy taking photos that people buy. No one has ever complained about image quality.

I can live with my K-7 for sure, but I do think Pentax have a very grim future if they don't release a full frame dSLR in the next 6 months. Canon, Nikon and Sony are defining the market, and the market isn't driven by the minority who hang out on forums debating 'IQ' of 100% crops of brick walls. The market is still very much driven by the spec sheet and brand image. A friend of mine recently 'got into' photography and would consider nothing other than Canon and Nikon. He doesn't even know what an EV is and yet he was adamant that he wanted a brand he sees pros using, a camera with 8 fps for shooting landscapes, a big camera so that people will think he has a better camera than them.

All my talk of Limited lenses, weather sealing, Hyper Manual... wasn't of interest compared to brand and spec sheet. That's the mainstream consumer - the one who couldn't care less about pixel densities - the one who thinks "that's a brand I know and respect, that one has a bigger sensor, so it's better, I'll take that one".

I fear Pentax will try to ignore the direction the market is going and end up like Kodak or Nokia.
You should have just told him that Pentax is the Japanese Leica and used only by select artists , which is why its so uncommon.
Point him to the 645D ($8.7K), then his mind will go "Wow! too expensive for me to own", then point him to the K5, and you would have closed the deal.

09-08-2012, 07:36 AM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by fast50 Quote
A friend of mine recently 'got into' photography and would consider nothing other than Canon and Nikon. He doesn't even know what an EV is and yet he was adamant that he wanted a brand he sees pros using, a camera with 8 fps for shooting landscapes, a big camera so that people will think he has a better camera than them.
That's what I call "going into buying a camera, not photography" pinholecam has a point; show him Pentax competing with "more pro" brands like Hasselblad and Phase One through the 645D, then mention the K-5
09-08-2012, 09:40 AM   #130
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But fast50's point is right on. How many average consumers have even heard of the 645D? The 645D is a camera for pros but that's not a market deficiency, it's a marketing deficiency. I like Pentax and have used the brand since I was a little kid, but I don't recall seeing or hearing any advertising for the 645D. The average consumer is swayed by advertising and spec sheets.

Advertising works and then a consumer wants to do a little "research" to make an educated purchase and often Pentax doesn't even show up in comparisons because they don't offer a FF. Or maybe an average consumer has never heard of Photokina and they look for current models being produced and all they see from our small niche brand is the K-30 and 645D . The next problem Pentax runs into is their lack of presence in brick and mortar stores. I always liked the slogan "Just hold a Pentax" because an unknowing consumer seeing Pentax's lineup online won't be that impressed compared to other brand's offerings. But all of us here know the build quality of our Pentax cameras are unmatched. Handling equivalent camera models from other brands always feels to me like holding a plastic toy.

It's a consumer-driven market and the consumer wants what is best on paper. FF will always have better specs than an APS-C, even if a point-and-shoot camera will meet their needs.
09-08-2012, 09:44 AM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobG Quote
No offence to the people clamouring for a FF camera, but I wish Pentax would make a statement definitely one way or the other so everyone could move on.
They have, many times. Their statement is always the same, they'd like a FF but have no intentions on producing one. They want to focus on building the most advanced, compact APS-C cameras.

That doesn't mean we can't sign petitions and like FB pages to try and convince them otherwise though .
09-08-2012, 10:54 AM   #132
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I'd say the best way to convince them is to buy their high-end K-mount stuff. This in turn will make them think they can build even higher-end stuff... and at a point, that would be a full frame.
09-08-2012, 02:48 PM   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by builttospill Quote
No offence to the people clamouring for a FF camera, but I wish Pentax would make a statement definitely one way or the other so everyone could move on.
Like Builttospill said, they have and they always say that FF is a no go.
But that goes in one ear of Pentaxians and out the other! And they still believe every year is going to be the year of the FF
I used to be living on that same dream, I woke up and saw the reality and took my money to another system and got my full frame

Last edited by TOUGEFC; 09-08-2012 at 04:32 PM.
09-08-2012, 07:29 PM   #134
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But Pentax's move to FF was always conditioned, to a degree, on the availability of good FF sensors, at the right price and terms. This is illustrated by the MZ-D and the Q.

With the MZ-D they had the body but the FF sensor was not good enough, so they would have gone too early and it would have been a disaster. With the Q they had the design for years but didn't put it on the market until Sony came up with sensors that produced respectable IQ, on the right terms and price, and which fit within the desired Q form factor.

Maybe it's the same with FF. Earlier FF sensors that found their way into other Nikon and Canon FF bodies may not have been available to Pentax under the right commercial or technical terms from the likes of Sony or Aptina or whoever. Now that Sony in particular has a big range of FF sensors available, perhaps on more open or attractive terms than in the past, Pentax may now feel it has better options for putting FF into it's bodies.

With budget FF's like the D600 and equivalent Canon's and Sony's on the horizon, FF is also beginning to lose it's largely 'pro' position in the market and expand into the 'serious' (and sometimes affluent) amateur space that Pentax currently inhabits with bodies like the K-5.

As the FF market evolves in that direction, and starts to directly threaten Pentax bodies like the K-5 in a way that FF bodies like the D700 and 5D2 never did in the past because they were in a different market tier, Pentax may finally decide to get into FF, since consumer-tier FF will directly muscle into Pentax's space.

Maybe.
09-08-2012, 07:57 PM   #135
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The way I see it, and without even seeing their sales figures, I can already state that Canon and Nikon make a large sum of their money off of Soccer Moms and the sort that want a 'big' camera to get 'professional' shots of their kid's sports, recital, and various school events... or simply show off to the other mothers in the audience.

In the USA, go to a soccer or little league baseball event and see how many 30-40 year old women have the same entry level Canon or Nikon kit and are shooting through the live view as if it is a P+S. Go see! It will open your eyes.

Now just imagine that is also occurring throughout cities and towns across the country.

They make a lot of money off of people with no desire to learn how to use their cameras properly. This is the reason there will always be an entry level SLR and why Pentax needs to try to cater to this area specifically.

It is similar to auto manufacturers and motor sports; "Race on Sunday, Sell on Monday." The professionals using your products give distinction to that brand and provide the desire on the consumers to be like that (thinking the product will resolve their lack of knowledge/technique)... the professionals sell the brand to the non-professional. And the non-professional shooters (i.e. the 'consumers') are the cash cow.

Now back to your discussion of FF.
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