645DII - 50 MP with crop 1.1. - is it good upgrade?

Clavius · 09-06-2012, 06:55 AM

Originally posted by ogl

Canon will show 46 MP FF camera if this rumor is truth. 10 extra MP - is it sufficiently for MF camera?

I don't know... Is the Nokia 808 a MF camera?

RonHendriks1966 · 09-06-2012, 06:58 AM

Well the sensor was already available at the start of the first 40mp 645D, so this is a logical upgrade model. New processor and AF-module are great. I wonder if this sensor is still working at a max of iso800, since that would be a downside.

Caat · 09-06-2012, 07:05 AM

Originally posted by Clavius

Well, I will never spend THAT amound of money on any camera like the 645D. But I do shoot film 645. And don't have the foggiest clue why I would ever want AF for medium format type of shooting.

But I understand that cameras that cost THAT much, have to have everything onboard. Even if you know that it will be stuck in the OFF postion forever.

True for you (and many others probably). However, I get the impression that Pentax wants the 645D range to expand out of the traditional MF domain of studio and landscape photography - in which case improved electronic sophistication is a must. Although having said that the long register distance means the cameras will always be big (plus the sensor size as well of course), and this is going to be a challenging factor for certain types of photography. In many ways doing a K-01 with the 645D would make more sense because removing the enormous mirror would help with weight, frame rates and durability - 60,000 actuations is a huge amount even for a MF that has a 1fps drive rate (and crucially costs that much). Obviously you loose the huge OVF and so on and so forth - but you wouldn't make your entire 645 range mirrorless, you'd have one model like that designed for the field and quick(er) response.

LamyTax · 09-06-2012, 07:10 AM

Pentax's main competitor in MF is Leica.

ogl · 09-06-2012, 07:14 AM

This thread is just for discussion. My opinion: it's really good upgrade. Crop 1.1 and 50 MP + new AF + new features.
It seems to me 645D will be on market till next year with good price. Maybe it won't be discontinued. Trusense Company works.

Alizarine · 09-06-2012, 07:26 AM

Originally posted by Clavius

I don't know... Is the Nokia 808 a MF camera?

hahah cool the sensors gonna be somewhat as large as the phone

Originally posted by ogl

Crop 1.1 and 50 MP + new AF + new features.

True, though I hope that new AF is centered more on accuracy and sensitivity than number of AF points..

thibs · 09-06-2012, 09:12 AM

It is good upgrade. The MP count is OKish but the crop going to almost full 645 film frame is more than a welcome addition.
Add AF upgrade and it is a very nice package.

If thay keep the old price and downgrade the 645D price to like 6000-7000 that could become really interesting.

thegoderic · 09-06-2012, 09:39 AM

I have a real world dilemma over this.

I have a 645N film body that gets far too little use and a bunch of lenses (35, 45, 55, 75, 120 Macro, 150 & 200), mostly AF that are crying out to be used.

If I lived off nothing for 6 months, I could just about run to a 645D or I could spend an awful lot less and get a mythical FF body that would probably get more use than the 645D due to greater portability.

On the other hand, if I sold my 645 lenses and body on eBay, I'd get less than what I paid for them (All bought from eBay apart from the 120 AF Macro that was an absolute bargain).

The other advantage of both the new 645D and the mythical FF beast is that my wide angle lenses would be wide again. I really love the 645 35mm and my 20mm A lens and it would be great to have them operating at the FOV that I am used to.

vrrattko · 09-06-2012, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by normhead

Funny how this works.... when you're talking FF versus APS-c a 12 Mb FF is better than 16 Mb APS-c, but when you're talking MF , a 46 Mp Canon FF is preferable to a 50 Mp MF, all based on conjecture of what might be. FF probably gets more development than MF because they outsell them maybe 50-1, but APS-c doesn't get more development than FF because it outsells them 10-1. The inconsistencies in logic just abound. It really gets old. Especially when it's all conjecture.

I suspect that for users like me : 12mp FF is better than 16mp APS-C plainly because my old wide/standard/tele FF lenses will become again wide, standard, tele. For the same reason i want to make myself believe 50mp FF will kick the crap out of 50mp MF, because I already have my old FF tele lens and I don't want to invest in new MF lens system. (if you see sarcasm there, it is intended)

vrrattko · 09-06-2012, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by Winder

Full Frame is at 40MP with CMOS sensors that can shoot HD video. Canon was rumored to be testing a 47MP at the Olympics. If Pentax goes with a CCD sensor in the 645D it had better be one amazing CCD when it comes to low noise and DR.

If Pentax wants to excite some people then a Sony CMOS sensor in the 645D could definitely do that. Maybe the new CCD is much better and can compete across the ISO range with the Sony CMOS.

CCD vs CMOS wars again?

RonHendriks1966 · 09-06-2012, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by Winder

Full Frame is at 40MP with CMOS sensors that can shoot HD video. Canon was rumored to be testing a 47MP at the Olympics. If Pentax goes with a CCD sensor in the 645D it had better be one amazing CCD when it comes to low noise and DR.

If Pentax wants to excite some people then a Sony CMOS sensor in the 645D could definitely do that. Maybe the new CCD is much better and can compete across the ISO range with the Sony CMOS.

Well doing sports with 645D sure isn't always easy. The max iso of 1600 with 645D_40mp is already a problem:

At the EC Synchronized Swimming:

The lens is to short with 300mm and f4 is already not so fast.

The 645D_50mp is working at a max of iso800 (if the specs didn't change), so that would make it working for sports (Olympics) not easy, if not impossible in a lot off ways.

Here the CMOS wins and the smaller sensor (even when it is full frame) makes it way easier.

**Fontan** · 09-06-2012, 11:40 AM

I am not sure how anybody can say one way or another if this is a good upgrade until they see with their own eyes the actual pictures. I am so utterly satisfied with my "D" that I am not sure why it needs an upgrade at all from the standpoint of sensor. Sure, faster processor will be nice, but even with that, I am not at all discontent with the "slowness" of this camera in that respect. At any rate, it is far faster than films being developed anyway.

With an upgrade like this, one also needs to evaluate the situation from cost perspective. Is it worth the trouble for me to sell my 645d at around 7-8 grand and spend another 3 grand to replace it?

I have hard time believing that it is worth the trouble and additional cost involved. For my use, there is nothing wrong with this camera whatsoever. I am not sure why it needs any upgrades at all . . . . . . .

Mistral75 · 09-06-2012, 11:45 AM

Another question: will people who have bought the $5,000 DA 645 25mm f/4 (not the DFA version sold in Japan) be able to use it with a 1.1x crop sensor?

Presumably not.

Lucky them!

ogl · 09-06-2012, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by Mistral75

Another question: will people who have bought the $5,000 DA 645 25mm f/4 (not the DFA version sold in Japan) be able to use it with a 1.1x crop sensor?

Presumably not.

Lucky them!

I think YES.

eurostar · 09-06-2012, 11:55 AM

It needs upgrade to keep the selling pace it has now. It is aimed not at you, but at who has not a 645D yet. And with the current full frame, it needs to have more pixel and more sensor area. And if they lower the price of the origitrnal 645D still on sale for sometime, bringing it to 7000-8000 euros, the ones who wants to upgrade it must sold it at an even lower price, around 5000-6000... making some 645D affordable for even more people, and enlarging the base who may buy a new lens and in any case letting the 645D be seen around much more...

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09-06-2012, 06:55 AM	#16
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Originally posted by ogl Canon will show 46 MP FF camera if this rumor is truth. 10 extra MP - is it sufficiently for MF camera? I don't know... Is the Nokia 808 a MF camera?

09-06-2012, 06:58 AM	#17
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Well the sensor was already available at the start of the first 40mp 645D, so this is a logical upgrade model. New processor and AF-module are great. I wonder if this sensor is still working at a max of iso800, since that would be a downside.

09-06-2012, 07:05 AM	#18
Caat Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: United Kingdom Photos: Albums Posts: 927	Originally posted by Clavius Well, I will never spend THAT amound of money on any camera like the 645D. But I do shoot film 645. And don't have the foggiest clue why I would ever want AF for medium format type of shooting. But I understand that cameras that cost THAT much, have to have everything onboard. Even if you know that it will be stuck in the OFF postion forever. True for you (and many others probably). However, I get the impression that Pentax wants the 645D range to expand out of the traditional MF domain of studio and landscape photography - in which case improved electronic sophistication is a must. Although having said that the long register distance means the cameras will always be big (plus the sensor size as well of course), and this is going to be a challenging factor for certain types of photography. In many ways doing a K-01 with the 645D would make more sense because removing the enormous mirror would help with weight, frame rates and durability - 60,000 actuations is a huge amount even for a MF that has a 1fps drive rate (and crucially costs that much). Obviously you loose the huge OVF and so on and so forth - but you wouldn't make your entire 645 range mirrorless, you'd have one model like that designed for the field and quick(er) response.

09-06-2012, 07:10 AM	#19
LamyTax Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 376	Pentax's main competitor in MF is Leica.

09-06-2012, 07:14 AM	#20
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382 Original Poster	This thread is just for discussion. My opinion: it's really good upgrade. Crop 1.1 and 50 MP + new AF + new features. It seems to me 645D will be on market till next year with good price. Maybe it won't be discontinued. Trusense Company works.

09-06-2012, 07:26 AM	#21
Alizarine Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Manila Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,185	Originally posted by Clavius I don't know... Is the Nokia 808 a MF camera? hahah cool the sensors gonna be somewhat as large as the phone Originally posted by ogl Crop 1.1 and 50 MP + new AF + new features. True, though I hope that new AF is centered more on accuracy and sensitivity than number of AF points..

09-06-2012, 09:12 AM	#22
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	It is good upgrade. The MP count is OKish but the crop going to almost full 645 film frame is more than a welcome addition. Add AF upgrade and it is a very nice package. If thay keep the old price and downgrade the 645D price to like 6000-7000 that could become really interesting.

09-06-2012, 09:39 AM	#23
thegoderic New Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 11	I have a real world dilemma over this. I have a 645N film body that gets far too little use and a bunch of lenses (35, 45, 55, 75, 120 Macro, 150 & 200), mostly AF that are crying out to be used. If I lived off nothing for 6 months, I could just about run to a 645D or I could spend an awful lot less and get a mythical FF body that would probably get more use than the 645D due to greater portability. On the other hand, if I sold my 645 lenses and body on eBay, I'd get less than what I paid for them (All bought from eBay apart from the 120 AF Macro that was an absolute bargain). The other advantage of both the new 645D and the mythical FF beast is that my wide angle lenses would be wide again. I really love the 645 35mm and my 20mm A lens and it would be great to have them operating at the FOV that I am used to.

09-06-2012, 10:39 AM	#24
vrrattko Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Photos: Albums Posts: 753	Originally posted by normhead Funny how this works.... when you're talking FF versus APS-c a 12 Mb FF is better than 16 Mb APS-c, but when you're talking MF , a 46 Mp Canon FF is preferable to a 50 Mp MF, all based on conjecture of what might be. FF probably gets more development than MF because they outsell them maybe 50-1, but APS-c doesn't get more development than FF because it outsells them 10-1. The inconsistencies in logic just abound. It really gets old. Especially when it's all conjecture. I suspect that for users like me : 12mp FF is better than 16mp APS-C plainly because my old wide/standard/tele FF lenses will become again wide, standard, tele. For the same reason i want to make myself believe 50mp FF will kick the crap out of 50mp MF, because I already have my old FF tele lens and I don't want to invest in new MF lens system. (if you see sarcasm there, it is intended)

09-06-2012, 10:50 AM	#25
vrrattko Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Photos: Albums Posts: 753	Originally posted by Winder Full Frame is at 40MP with CMOS sensors that can shoot HD video. Canon was rumored to be testing a 47MP at the Olympics. If Pentax goes with a CCD sensor in the 645D it had better be one amazing CCD when it comes to low noise and DR. If Pentax wants to excite some people then a Sony CMOS sensor in the 645D could definitely do that. Maybe the new CCD is much better and can compete across the ISO range with the Sony CMOS. CCD vs CMOS wars again?

09-06-2012, 11:07 AM	#26
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by Winder Full Frame is at 40MP with CMOS sensors that can shoot HD video. Canon was rumored to be testing a 47MP at the Olympics. If Pentax goes with a CCD sensor in the 645D it had better be one amazing CCD when it comes to low noise and DR. If Pentax wants to excite some people then a Sony CMOS sensor in the 645D could definitely do that. Maybe the new CCD is much better and can compete across the ISO range with the Sony CMOS. Well doing sports with 645D sure isn't always easy. The max iso of 1600 with 645D_40mp is already a problem: At the EC Synchronized Swimming: The lens is to short with 300mm and f4 is already not so fast. The 645D_50mp is working at a max of iso800 (if the specs didn't change), so that would make it working for sports (Olympics) not easy, if not impossible in a lot off ways. Here the CMOS wins and the smaller sensor (even when it is full frame) makes it way easier.

09-06-2012, 11:40 AM	#27
Fontan Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: 5th floor Posts: 1,610	I am not sure how anybody can say one way or another if this is a good upgrade until they see with their own eyes the actual pictures. I am so utterly satisfied with my "D" that I am not sure why it needs an upgrade at all from the standpoint of sensor. Sure, faster processor will be nice, but even with that, I am not at all discontent with the "slowness" of this camera in that respect. At any rate, it is far faster than films being developed anyway. With an upgrade like this, one also needs to evaluate the situation from cost perspective. Is it worth the trouble for me to sell my 645d at around 7-8 grand and spend another 3 grand to replace it? I have hard time believing that it is worth the trouble and additional cost involved. For my use, there is nothing wrong with this camera whatsoever. I am not sure why it needs any upgrades at all . . . . . . .

09-06-2012, 11:45 AM	#28
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	Another question: will people who have bought the $5,000 DA 645 25mm f/4 (not the DFA version sold in Japan) be able to use it with a 1.1x crop sensor? Presumably not. Lucky them!

09-06-2012, 11:53 AM	#29
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382 Original Poster	Originally posted by Mistral75 Another question: will people who have bought the $5,000 DA 645 25mm f/4 (not the DFA version sold in Japan) be able to use it with a 1.1x crop sensor? Presumably not. Lucky them! I think YES.

09-06-2012, 11:55 AM	#30
eurostar Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Albareto, Italy Photos: Gallery Posts: 819	It needs upgrade to keep the selling pace it has now. It is aimed not at you, but at who has not a 645D yet. And with the current full frame, it needs to have more pixel and more sensor area. And if they lower the price of the origitrnal 645D still on sale for sometime, bringing it to 7000-8000 euros, the ones who wants to upgrade it must sold it at an even lower price, around 5000-6000... making some 645D affordable for even more people, and enlarging the base who may buy a new lens and in any case letting the 645D be seen around much more...