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02-02-2008, 03:48 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Arpe Quote
Reply in allo allo style-
You stupid man, whay don't you say what you are meaning.

It's good moaning from me.
I mode my gooses in my pists above!

02-02-2008, 06:19 AM   #17
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Richard

QuoteOriginally posted by Richard Day Quote
No, just a wish!

Plus I keep dropping big hints to anyone associated with or at Pentax!

It is pretty clear that there will be a 3 tier APS-C body line-up by 2009, entry, mid-point and upper. How up-market the top one will be is not known outside the company.

To me it makes some sense to build a body that can fill the gap left by the D2x, with very simlar features. The D2x was an immensly popular camera (justifiably) and many D2x users feel rightly upset that they have been left in the situation that they cannot replace their workhorses, but are forced into a replacement that costs twice the price and gives them 5MP with their DX lenses, or buy a less well specified and capable camera in the D300.

Pentax need to build a uper model that exceeds the D300 and of course the Canon 5D or it's replacement, It is now very obvious that APS sensor technology can match the larger sensors.

Another point is that Canon users don't have an APS body above the mid-point 40D and it looks that it will stay that way. The poor guys have to upgrade to either a 5D (more of a downgrade really) or to the 1D mkIII, which is probably the most popular of the pro-Canons, at least you get a 1.3x tele-extender! (This is very important to the paparazzi, they need long reach - Think about it!) The 1DS sales are well below that of the 1D, even though it's FF.

I believe, that with Nikon and Sony entering the FF market place along with Canon, as their level above their mid-point cameras, it leaves a huge opportunity for Pentax to jump in with a pro-spec camera with the right goodies just above the D300. It will be a very attractive option for those who want to stay with APS-C (for all the obvious reasons, weight, free 1.5x tele-extender, better DOF etc, etc) but get true pro-level performance for maybe around a 1800-2000 (inc our VAT) or US $3000-3500 (w/o tax) price point. That sector of the market would generate far greater sales than any FF'ng nonsense, let C, N and now Sony battle it out for the 2-4% market share, I reckon they're nuts myself.

With all the new lenses now becoming avialable for Pentax, plus the already established ones, I could see that being a real winner!

After that, I do believe that could eventually see Pentax launch a larger sensor body, i.e. a 645 1.3 crop (the 645D), or APS x2, around the 645 lens mount with SR, SDM and all the benefits gained from their current and up-coming APS models. They could even reduce the registration distance between mount and sensor to allow for easier WA lens design, but still have the ability to use existing 645 lenses with the use of a spacer adaptor, to account for the different registration distance, similar in concept to the Olympus OM to 4/3rds adaptor.
Your feelings are mine exactly,


wll
02-02-2008, 07:28 AM   #18
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A different market approach

QuoteOriginally posted by Richard Day Quote

After that, I do believe that could eventually see Pentax launch a larger sensor body, i.e. a 645 1.3 crop (the 645D), or APS x2, around the 645 lens mount with SR, SDM and all the benefits gained from their current and up-coming APS models. They could even reduce the registration distance between mount and sensor to allow for easier WA lens design, but still have the ability to use existing 645 lenses with the use of a spacer adaptor, to account for the different registration distance, similar in concept to the Olympus OM to 4/3rds adaptor.
This is going to either be ripped to shreds or totally ignored. The DSLR market has grown in size so much in the last year that it is time for some manufacturer to start thinking in terms of selling multiple bodies to users as they do lenses. Because of Pentax's smaller size they would be the one to do this the easiest. Niche market bodies in the $900 to $1,500 price range is what I would envision. Strip a body of everything it doesn't need for each type of shooting and market it to that group of users as an additional tool. The customer base is primed for this because they now purchase different lenses for different situations, why not different bodies for specific purposes?

A travel body and a sports action body are just two markets that could be attacked. Landscape and wildlife are others. These different models might even have a range of sensor sizes from 4/3eds to FF along with various crop factors. "Just in time" type production lines make switching from one model to another economical so having 6 or even 12 different bodies should not run up cost. Cadcam programs along with C & C machines have reduced the cost and time of R & D drastically in the last several years so that is not a valid reason for not pursuing this market approach.

Regards,

Ken
02-02-2008, 09:27 AM   #19
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Lens'

QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
Interesting.

I always thought that Pentax would create a line of DSLRs similar to the Nkon lineup, except they'd stop at D300 level and wouldn't go to FF.

It's very logical and would lead to a very coherent APS-C lineup.

If they want to go pro, they have to get the green light on the 645.

My guess is that we will never see a xD or Dx serie camera from Pentax.
They don't have that good a line up of lens' atm considering hardly any of them are sdm etc and not many decent telephotos above 200mm and if they release a FF camera then what's to happen to the lens roadmap...wait 3 years for lens' to appear.

But what they do have is generally of good quality, they just need some cash to speed up R&D

02-02-2008, 10:23 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by dopeytree Quote
They don't have that good a line up of lens' atm considering hardly any of them are sdm etc and not many decent telephotos above 200mm and if they release a FF camera then what's to happen to the lens roadmap...wait 3 years for lens' to appear.

But what they do have is generally of good quality, they just need some cash to speed up R&D

Don't worry. There are lenses no one has heard about that will be forthcoming soon enough. And Size matters in more than one way.

Stephen
02-02-2008, 11:00 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by clawhamemr Quote
Regarding Hoya's more conservative approach, I like it. Pentax seemed to disappear in the late 90's and first two or three years of the 21st century; if this was the result of the "guts and go" approach then I wholly support a more conservative approach. Look at what Canon and Nikon have done- produce a breakthrough model (Digital Rebel/D50), upgrade it (XT/D40), then release a very conservative upgrade of it (XTi/D40x/60) and milk it for a while to build up money reserves. (I'm not saying that the D50 came out at the same time as the Rebel, the grouping is based on concept, not launch date).
One hitch about this whole idea is that both Canon and Nikon have established themselves already, so they can keep milking through incremental upgrades (see 400D and D60 - the 450D is more substantial than the 400D was, though), as opposed to Pentax who needs to eat into the competition's market shares.

One could also make an assessment that Pentax tried to milk the 6 MP Sony sensor for as long as it could, with the *ist D, DS, DS2, DL, DL2, and K110D series (I'm not about to include the K100D there as SR is enough of a difference-maker to me to make it more than just an incremental upgrade). Of course, that didn't get Pentax much market share.

I still like the thinking that went into the K10D. Surprise the people with a middle-tier camera with a unique mix of features (SR and weather-sealing) at a much lower price than the competition. That was Pentax's swan-song as an individual entity, and if we're to assume it was also a guts-and-go decision, well, that played out pretty well. Well enough, in fact, that it possibly made Hoya reconsider selling off Pentax to another company and continue funding the K20D's development, as well as adding to the lens line-up.

While I'm also one to appreciate the take-caution approach, it certainly wouldn't hurt to mix in some guts-and-go in there.

QuoteOriginally posted by Richard Day Quote
No, just a wish!

Plus I keep dropping big hints to anyone associated with or at Pentax!
Thanks for trying to pull strings for the benefit of us Pentax users. Much appreciated.

QuoteOriginally posted by Richard Day Quote
It is pretty clear that there will be a 3 tier APS-C body line-up by 2009, entry, mid-point and upper. How up-market the top one will be is not known outside the company.

To me it makes some sense to build a body that can fill the gap left by the D2x, with very simlar features. The D2x was an immensly popular camera (justifiably) and many D2x users feel rightly upset that they have been left in the situation that they cannot replace their workhorses, but are forced into a replacement that costs twice the price and gives them 5MP with their DX lenses, or buy a less well specified and capable camera in the D300.

Pentax need to build a uper model that exceeds the D300 and of course the Canon 5D or it's replacement, It is now very obvious that APS sensor technology can match the larger sensors.
It's interesting that you point out the D2x. That's a market space that probably could be exploited by Pentax and Olympus.

I would reckon it's hard to maintain different sensor formats by one company, since you'll always have people who would feel left out and grumbling, like you mentioned. Currently, Four-Thirds and Pentax don't have that problem, but I still cannot say if they can keep supporting the same format they do later on in the future when APS-C and 4/3 technology have hit the limit on how to keep competitive with larger-format sensors. Anything that can be done to push small sensor technology further can easily be adopted by bigger sensors and give even better performance.

The bigger problem is that the MP race, high ISO pixel-peeping, and dynamic range measuring is still and will continue to rage on. The manufacturers cannot stop making cameras, and marketers need some baseline stuff to tout in the newer models, so stuff like 24MP and ISO 25600 will stretch the limits of smaller sensor formats, especially since DSLRs are now becoming more and more like common electronic goods that need to be updated in 2 years or less.

How fast can the great engineers over at Samsung and Pentax keep up with this rapid pace? I trust they can keep APS-C competitive with the big sensors in the near future and possibly beyond, but for how long?

Even Mr. Carlson acknowledges the uncertainty that Pentax might need to have another bigger format later on. I feel that this is more for Pentax's stature and perception by the market. Sony really did the Alpha range a favor by announcing their full-frame sensor. Not that a lot of people would need it, but it certainly helps a brand's perception that the brand can keep up and play with the big players.

With Pentax having a working prototype already of the 645D, that could surely crush the FF propaganda being thrown about by Canon, Nikon, and Sony. Let's hope Hoya will green-light that, with a new sensor developed for it by Samsung.

QuoteOriginally posted by Richard Day Quote
Another point is that Canon users don't have an APS body above the mid-point 40D and it looks that it will stay that way. The poor guys have to upgrade to either a 5D (more of a downgrade really) or to the 1D mkIII, which is probably the most popular of the pro-Canons, at least you get a 1.3x tele-extender! (This is very important to the paparazzi, they need long reach - Think about it!) The 1DS sales are well below that of the 1D, even though it's FF.
Yup, the 1-series are really for rich folks or working pros. It's not that easy to justify the cost of those cameras if you're a 40D user.

Depending on what one shoots, though, the 5D may or may not be an upgrade for him/her.

QuoteOriginally posted by Richard Day Quote
I believe, that with Nikon and Sony entering the FF market place along with Canon, as their level above their mid-point cameras, it leaves a huge opportunity for Pentax to jump in with a pro-spec camera with the right goodies just above the D300. It will be a very attractive option for those who want to stay with APS-C (for all the obvious reasons, weight, free 1.5x tele-extender, better DOF etc, etc) but get true pro-level performance for maybe around a 1800-2000 (inc our VAT) or US $3000-3500 (w/o tax) price point. That sector of the market would generate far greater sales than any FF'ng nonsense, let C, N and now Sony battle it out for the 2-4% market share, I reckon they're nuts myself.

With all the new lenses now becoming avialable for Pentax, plus the already established ones, I could see that being a real winner!
Agreed. A Pentax D2x-type camera would benefit Pentax a lot. It gives a nice upgrade path for both old (those with sizable FF lens collections) and new Pentax shooters (who bought into the DA line), as well as give a better perception of the whole system by people looking to switch or buying DSLRs for the first time.

QuoteOriginally posted by Richard Day Quote
After that, I do believe that could eventually see Pentax launch a larger sensor body, i.e. a 645 1.3 crop (the 645D), or APS x2, around the 645 lens mount with SR, SDM and all the benefits gained from their current and up-coming APS models. They could even reduce the registration distance between mount and sensor to allow for easier WA lens design, but still have the ability to use existing 645 lenses with the use of a spacer adaptor, to account for the different registration distance, similar in concept to the Olympus OM to 4/3rds adaptor.
The Pentax D2x-type combined with the 645D would very well be tempting offerings for hobbyists and pros. The D2x-type for sports shooters and photojournalists and the 645D for those who want the ultimate in IQ and resolution (fashion and landscape shooters, to name some). It's a good combo, and will definitely turn heads.

QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
This is going to either be ripped to shreds or totally ignored. The DSLR market has grown in size so much in the last year that it is time for some manufacturer to start thinking in terms of selling multiple bodies to users as they do lenses. Because of Pentax's smaller size they would be the one to do this the easiest. Niche market bodies in the $900 to $1,500 price range is what I would envision. Strip a body of everything it doesn't need for each type of shooting and market it to that group of users as an additional tool. The customer base is primed for this because they now purchase different lenses for different situations, why not different bodies for specific purposes?

A travel body and a sports action body are just two markets that could be attacked. Landscape and wildlife are others. These different models might even have a range of sensor sizes from 4/3eds to FF along with various crop factors. "Just in time" type production lines make switching from one model to another economical so having 6 or even 12 different bodies should not run up cost. Cadcam programs along with C & C machines have reduced the cost and time of R & D drastically in the last several years so that is not a valid reason for not pursuing this market approach.

Regards,

Ken
I think Sony is trying to start this trend, though they're not as of the moment trying to target specific markets. The A200, A300, and A350 are basically made of the same shell and share much of the same features save for some big ones (A200 > live view > A300 > 14MP > A350), and are priced only a hundred bucks apart for each unique feature.

Your idea is better though, by having Pentax target the markets themselves, and not just differentiating through only one feature between one model and the next in the ladder.

QuoteOriginally posted by dopeytree Quote
They don't have that good a line up of lens' atm considering hardly any of them are sdm etc and not many decent telephotos above 200mm and if they release a FF camera then what's to happen to the lens roadmap...wait 3 years for lens' to appear.

But what they do have is generally of good quality, they just need some cash to speed up R&D
Well, releasing the 200 and 300, along with the planned release of the 17-70 and 60-250 later this year already eclipses last year's output of only the 16-50 and 50-135 with a rebadge job in-between (18-250). It's all good.

I think Richard has a good idea. Keep catering to the APS-C format, then accompany it with a whole different format altogether with the 645D later on. It's a much bigger jump from APS-C to medium format than full-frame, so it creates less worries for buyers hesitant to buy made-for-APS-only lenses in the near future.

A side benefit/drawback (depending on one's perspective) with going medium-format is that Pentax can control the sales of lenses, being the lone supplier of 645 lenses at that point in time. The drawback is that consumers won't have any choice, since the third-party makers would be hesitant to make lenses for that format unless the user base grows in size (see Tamron and Sigma releasing some lenses for Pentax, Sony, and Olympus only now).
02-02-2008, 02:18 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
This is going to either be ripped to shreds or totally ignored. The DSLR market has grown in size so much in the last year that it is time for some manufacturer to start thinking in terms of selling multiple bodies to users as they do lenses. Because of Pentax's smaller size they would be the one to do this the easiest. Niche market bodies in the $900 to $1,500 price range is what I would envision. Strip a body of everything it doesn't need for each type of shooting and market it to that group of users as an additional tool. The customer base is primed for this because they now purchase different lenses for different situations, why not different bodies for specific purposes?

A travel body and a sports action body are just two markets that could be attacked. Landscape and wildlife are others. These different models might even have a range of sensor sizes from 4/3eds to FF along with various crop factors. "Just in time" type production lines make switching from one model to another economical so having 6 or even 12 different bodies should not run up cost. Cadcam programs along with C & C machines have reduced the cost and time of R & D drastically in the last several years so that is not a valid reason for not pursuing this market approach.

Regards,

Ken
Actually I thinks thats a nice idea. The only problem is the magazines and reviewers are not always photographers and would probably down-grade the cameras as a result because of "lack of features" whereas the average melon head (who is essential to keep sales up) would not "get it".

Personally however, I would love this idea! I hate having to buy a bunch of (to me) useless features when all I want is a really excellent portrait and landscape tool. I would happily buy a cheaper, low res cam with high ISO capability for gigs if I needed one, and added together these two bodies would not be much more than one overstuffed do-it-all compromise camera.
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