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09-17-2012, 07:07 AM   #226
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Moreover, do we really want Pentax to become known as the 'cheap' brand again?
With "better offer", I wasn't actually thinking in terms of price, but rather in terms of a very attractive camera with unique features.

09-17-2012, 07:19 AM   #227
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The Nikon D600 uses a Sony FF sensor and Pentax gets their sensors from Sony so I would not think Pentax could beat Sony on price by much.
09-17-2012, 07:29 AM   #228
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
True, if Pentax can undercut the other brands with it's FF signifacantly, they may be able to pull in some of the other brands users. But how is a tiny company like Pentax going to produce THAT cheap. They lack the volumes. Moreover, do we really want Pentax to become known as the 'cheap' brand again? Pentax has been struggling to fight that stigma for years now.
Undercutting is the road to ruin, imho. A carefully thought out, well made product should be able to justify its price. Pentax's bodies aren't the problem, imho, or shouldn't be if they really have upped their game with autofocus. It's the range of lenses and accessories where they are weak. Canon and Nikon have huge lens catalogues and plenty of third-party support, enough to cater to all levels of users. Bar a few primes dating from the last century which are beginning to show their age, Pentax has zilch FF lens material currently in production. I'm not counting some DA lenses currently sold as APS-C which "might" work; they are no substitute. Alarm bells, loud ones, imho.

Last edited by mecrox; 09-17-2012 at 08:20 AM.
09-17-2012, 07:48 AM - 1 Like   #229
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
True, if Pentax can undercut the other brands with it's FF signifacantly, they may be able to pull in some of the other brands users. But how is a tiny company like Pentax going to produce THAT cheap. They lack the volumes. Moreover, do we really want Pentax to become known as the 'cheap' brand again? Pentax has been struggling to fight that stigma for years now.
cheapER maybe, but there was never anything 'cheap' about Pentax product quality, as confirmed in reviews thus if anything it was seen as a scrappy "value" brand with some unique qualities, not unlike Sigma or Tamron. Not a terrible stigma, there are certainly worse ones.

no, I fear Pentax suffers from a much more harmful stigma right now, that of a has-been brand who's lost their way, no longer able to keep up with the big two as a true alternative. doomed to a dusty corner at the camera shop if they even carry it at all anymore. It's certainly been a mere footnote so far this year at the big show.

09-17-2012, 08:11 AM   #230
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
I bet Pentax just lost many who wanted a FF to Sony, Nikon and Canon this week.
I agree 100%. After years of waiting in vain and wishing for a Pentax FF, now there are several new and even some cheaper FF models from other brands. This is the year that APS-C users from different brands will move to FF in flocks, despite what some FF haters say. And for Pentax this is a major lost opportunity.

On the other hand, the situation being what it is, I wouldn't be that surprised to see a dummy Pentax FF prototype at Photokina. Damage control, trying to keep the customers while not being able or willing to deliver (yet?).
09-17-2012, 08:32 AM   #231
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QuoteOriginally posted by Raffwal Quote
I agree 100%. After years of waiting in vain and wishing for a Pentax FF, now there are several new and even some cheaper FF models from other brands. This is the year that APS-C users from different brands will move to FF in flocks, despite what some FF haters say. And for Pentax this is a major lost opportunity.

On the other hand, the situation being what it is, I wouldn't be that surprised to see a dummy Pentax FF prototype at Photokina. Damage control, trying to keep the customers while not being able or willing to deliver (yet?).
For myself, I think we are beyond the damage control point now. That might have been understandable a few years ago and while Hoya were in charge, but not today. This fair is a chance for Ricoh to show that they are in charge, have a clear, coherent strategy and a solid sense of purpose. Without that, new products are lessened in impact anyway. If the fair ends with the usual "will they won't they, yes we might no we won't" carry on over new products and without the sense that some strong minds are now at the helm, all it will suggest is that Ricoh have failed to get a grip on their not so new acquisition. This would not be good news. It isn't just the patience of you or I but of the retailers and business buyers out there. They too must be looking for a lot more than blather and damage limitation. We've had both for years.
09-17-2012, 08:35 AM   #232
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QuoteOriginally posted by sjwaldron Quote
So I was looking at adorama.com and noticed their lens search feature lists the new DA 50mm f1.8 as a full-frame lens...
As does B+H. I've concluded it's not a mistake.
09-17-2012, 08:36 AM   #233
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Exactly, I have no idea why Pentax would even bother with a FF camera. None of the switchers are going to bother switching back again. Selling all Pentax gear and aquiring new gear is a royal PITA. And then there's the uncertainty. If they bring out a FF line, will they stick with it? Or will it be a short lived experiment?

Only the people who never gave up waiting will buy the FF body. And people upgrading from bridge cameras and point and shoots for the first time.
So... if they don't introduce a FF next year, they will lose even more market share, as more people move into photography.

09-17-2012, 11:13 AM   #234
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
no, I fear Pentax suffers from a much more harmful stigma right now, that of a has-been brand who's lost their way, no longer able to keep up with the big two as a true alternative. doomed to a dusty corner at the camera shop if they even carry it at all anymore. It's certainly been a mere footnote so far this year at the big show.
What you describe here isn't a mere stigma, but the harsh reality. It's like they don't even want it any longer.
09-17-2012, 11:52 AM   #235
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
What you describe here isn't a mere stigma, but the harsh reality. It's like they don't even want it any longer.
yea, the good old times, when Pentax was at the leading edge in digital camera business - but, sorry, when was that again?

I really just can't understand what some people here are expecting from Pentax, really, no pun intended, just plain curiousity o my side. Since the late 80s Pentax never got back to be a eqivalent alternative to Canon or Nikon, but they brought products that showed they were not driven by marketing trends but showed some out of the box thinking, like the environmentally sealed LX or the limited lenses introduced with the Mz- series, a total antipode to a Nikon F5 or Canon Eos 1. In digital times the late but solid alternative *istD, the K10D, the K-5 never (!) aimed at the top-class from the other manufacturers but were "just" plain solid robust cameras made for photographers, I think here we all agree. So what do you mean should be the radical change in their policy that may indicate that they "don't want it any longer"???
I would say they are perfectly consistent in their offerings, also the new offerings K-5II(s) perfectly fit in this scheme. As would a K-3 with 24Mp APS-C, if they really bring something new, like a stunning viewfinder, they would get a wow from me and serious CBA, I wouldn't expect that from a compromised 35mm sensor-cam...

Last edited by MMVIII; 09-17-2012 at 12:13 PM.
09-17-2012, 12:48 PM   #236
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I don't know why folks are in such a frenzy over one off-hand comment from a display stall rep, prior to the opening of a show. The rep may know what he is talking about, or he may not. Pentax may not want to broadcast their plans yet for FF. Its just a data point that may relate to facts or may not. I'd seek more confirmation, e.g. the results of a formal interview with a Pentax official at the show, before relying so much on one casual conversation.
09-17-2012, 02:18 PM   #237
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
For myself, I think we are beyond the damage control point now. That might have been understandable a few years ago and while Hoya were in charge, but not today. This fair is a chance for Ricoh to show that they are in charge, have a clear, coherent strategy and a solid sense of purpose. Without that, new products are lessened in impact anyway. If the fair ends with the usual "will they won't they, yes we might no we won't" carry on over new products and without the sense that some strong minds are now at the helm, all it will suggest is that Ricoh have failed to get a grip on their not so new acquisition. This would not be good news. It isn't just the patience of you or I but of the retailers and business buyers out there. They too must be looking for a lot more than blather and damage limitation. We've had both for years.
Assuming Ricoh told Pentax I want a FF DSLR the day they took the helm, and that Pentax had a conceptual design ready to go at that time, it would be doubtful they would have a product ready for the store shelves this year even if they put all their efforts into it. I think Pentax has adopted the only strategy that they could sustain under the circumstances.
09-17-2012, 02:40 PM   #238
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QuoteOriginally posted by regor Quote
Assuming Ricoh told Pentax I want a FF DSLR the day they took the helm, and that Pentax had a conceptual design ready to go at that time, it would be doubtful they would have a product ready for the store shelves this year even if they put all their efforts into it. I think Pentax has adopted the only strategy that they could sustain under the circumstances.
I'm sure you are right but I'm not that interested in the specifics of a particular camera. It's whether Ricoh have applied some hammer and really taken control, redrawn the product map (if that was needed), put in the strategic plan and the extra investment, put in the right people and generally shown a vigorous new face to the world. If they've got all that down right, I am sure the products will follow. Pentax have excellent engineers as we know but imho the key is that old word, leadership. The rather patchy list of announcements so far isn't all that encouraging because it doesn't really add up to "these guys really do mean business" but I realize this is just my 2 cents, nothing more, and of course we can only look at the outside, having no knowledge of the inside.
09-18-2012, 05:11 AM   #239
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QuoteOriginally posted by regor Quote
Assuming Ricoh told Pentax I want a FF DSLR the day they took the helm, and that Pentax had a conceptual design ready to go at that time, it would be doubtful they would have a product ready for the store shelves this year even if they put all their efforts into it. I think Pentax has adopted the only strategy that they could sustain under the circumstances.
I agree with you on this, but why insist that FF is even on the roadmap? Pentax has to realize that a significant portion of their users were disappointed by the k5II. They have to know that there are a lot of people considering jumping ship. So why show a FF prototype? If they are bound by some 6 month Sony/Nikon agreement, then why not just say that they are looking at their options for FF? The rhetoric the insists that FF is not coming or is not even on the roadmap...well, that is what has people throwing in the towels and moving to the dark side. I believe that most FF wishers are smart enough to know that it wasn't coming this photokina; we know that the k5II is all that Ricoh could do in such a short time...but they should have said it was on the roadmap. People would have waited if they said it was coming, but saying that it isn't coming will make a lot of people leave.
09-18-2012, 05:28 AM   #240
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QuoteOriginally posted by Allison Quote
I agree with you on this, but why insist that FF is even on the roadmap? Pentax has to realize that a significant portion of their users were disappointed by the k5II. They have to know that there are a lot of people considering jumping ship. So why show a FF prototype? If they are bound by some 6 month Sony/Nikon agreement, then why not just say that they are looking at their options for FF? The rhetoric the insists that FF is not coming or is not even on the roadmap...well, that is what has people throwing in the towels and moving to the dark side. I believe that most FF wishers are smart enough to know that it wasn't coming this photokina; we know that the k5II is all that Ricoh could do in such a short time...but they should have said it was on the roadmap. People would have waited if they said it was coming, but saying that it isn't coming will make a lot of people leave.
My guess is that it is a combination of three things. First of all, they really do want to sell some K5 IIs and they are afraid that if they indicate a planned camera on the horizon that a lot of folks will just hold off buying the current "flagship." The second thing is that such a full frame camera would require not only a camera, but the release of several lenses, all of which are still in the planning stage. Announce a product too soon and you spoil the announcement when it really happens. Finally, I think they are waiting for the air to clear a little bit. Nikon, Canon and Sony are busy staking out their claims in the full frame arena and Pentax is figuring out exactly where they can target a full frame camera where they will steal the most users from the current market leaders. Just simply releasing the smallest full frame dSLR camera probably would not be enough.

Still, I would be certain that there is something more "behind the curtain," that Pentax will bring out the beginning of next year or perhaps in the spring. (at least I'm hoping)
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