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09-19-2012, 05:08 PM   #271
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Whats inside the K-01 is the K-30 minus an optical finder. Literally!
a clever way of saying less the mirror....

09-19-2012, 05:19 PM   #272
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote

it's already begun
It is not about replacent but diversification.
09-19-2012, 05:20 PM   #273
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
They don't subsidise cameras production by selling expensive lenses. Every products must meet their profit goals to the extent the competition situation allows. If not, they will increas the price or discontinue it. This is how manufacturing economics works. Canons DSLR's are money making machines. I'm pretty sure they make money on the lenses also except for the kit lenses.
Hang on a minute, I'll just call up my lecturers in business studies and tell them they got it wrong.

You might buy one or two camera bodies but you'll probably buy at least 6 lenses and a few flash units if you're a pro. Nikon and Canon would definitely have entire systems viability in mind with each and every product they think about bringing to market. I suspect they are prepared to take a hit on cameras like the D800 just to influence the market and get people buying their top glass.
09-19-2012, 05:24 PM   #274
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Where is the data for this? Canon sell 7 million DSLR's a year. Less than 200 000 are FF. Ie more and more APS every day; not less. If I'm not mistaken they yearly growth is between 15-30%.
We had the above prediction three years ago if not longer. The opposite have happened; Canons fortune are the entry level models and the 7D. Mirrorless have had no impact on Canon (or Nikon) DSLR sales (but have had an impact on P&S sales).
Mirror or not has nothing to do with sensor size.
And there is no consumer FF body, only consumer quality of the hardware. They are out of reach of 95% of the DSLR buying public and that doesn't make them consumer oriented in my book. Nor are they getting any cheaper, just cheaper made but costing the same illustrating that it is the sensor that cost money and put limits on how cheap you can sell them.
all your figures prove to me is that APS-C DSLRs are going further and further downmarket. how you equate that as something good for Pentax I can't fathom, especially right now that they don't have a colorful set of cheap K-x level cameras available.

Videomakers bought the 7D because they couldn't afford the 5DmkII. now they don't have to, because for a couple hundred more they can afford the FF 6D. The small Panasonic GH2 and now ruggedized GH3 have made serious waves in the video world, and Canon is going to bring improved video down to the 60D level (with swivel screen) to compete.

You shouldn't be interested in last year's figures, you should be interested in next year's.

09-19-2012, 05:27 PM   #275
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
Hang on a minute, I'll just call up my lecturers in business studies and tell them they got it wrong.

You might buy one or two camera bodies but you'll probably buy at least 6 lenses and a few flash units if you're a pro. Nikon and Canon would definitely have entire systems viability in mind with each and every product they think about bringing to market. I suspect they are prepared to take a hit on cameras like the D800 just to influence the market and get people buying their top glass.
Presently Canon sell 7million DSLR a year and a bit above 10million lenses a year. Their importance is pretty much equal. The bean counters are probably not willing to take a hit anywhere if they don't have to. No way do they need to sell the D800 cheap. THey make cameras like the D800 because it is a high marging item. They have every interest (along with Canon) that it stays that way...
09-19-2012, 05:27 PM   #276
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
It is not about replacent but diversification.
It's the testing and beginning of a transition. ask Kodak.
09-19-2012, 05:32 PM   #277
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Whats inside the K-01 is the K-30 minus an optical finder. Literally!
Were is the mic input jack on the K-30 ?
09-20-2012, 12:08 AM   #278
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Cheaper than what? You could buy cheaper FF cameras three years ago. There has been no price drop on FF sensors.
With respect, I think you are about to be swallowed by the tide. Canon and Nikon aren't introducing the first models of what is highly likely to be a series of cheaper FF cams by mistake. They are the two players to whom everyone pays attention, whose technology the press and opinion-formers folllow and whose products are in every store, so when they act chances are it means something's up. What they say and how they present their new cameras will become the story regardless of whether one disagrees or can pick holes in the argument. I think the point is that this is a door on which folks will continue to knock from here on in, stores that once never stocked FF cams will now begin to stock them, and so on.

Dislaimer: No APS-C cameras were hurt in the making of this comment.

09-20-2012, 12:18 AM   #279
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Whats inside the K-01 is the K-30 minus an optical finder. Literally!
Lol, but it's the tech on those silicon chips which really counts, the Prime M engine, the focus system, the EVF if ithere is one, the merging of stills,video and sound into a single stream of data from which the user pulls whatever they wish. If Pentax don't keep abreast of that stuff then in just a few years folks will be wondering why everyone else is doing new-gen mirrorless cams but Pentax hasn't heard of them.
09-20-2012, 01:28 AM - 1 Like   #280
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Banging on endlessly about the cost of sensors is quite pathetic really because in "the good old days" one had to "endlessly" shell out for film and processing. Digital photography these days is dirt cheap compared to that.
09-20-2012, 01:42 AM   #281
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If Pentax does produce a FF, I have a box of old film 35mm glass I will enjoy using!
09-20-2012, 01:49 AM - 1 Like   #282
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
Banging on endlessly about the cost of sensors is quite pathetic really because in "the good old days" one had to "endlessly" shell out for film and processing. Digital photography these days is dirt cheap compared to that.
Good point Steve. Seem we forget this.
Last week on holiday (with 25 other amatuer photogs) I took well over 2000 shots in 5 days. The film and processing costs would have cost more than the travel, food etc.

It's a good thing for me that electrons are virtually free. .

The cost of "the box" to mix up the photons and electrons in may be an inital barrier but in the long run its way cheaper than it used to be.
09-20-2012, 07:40 AM   #283
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
With respect, I think you are about to be swallowed by the tide. Canon and Nikon aren't introducing the first models of what is highly likely to be a series of cheaper FF cams by mistake. They are the two players to whom everyone pays attention, whose technology the press and opinion-formers folllow and whose products are in every store, so when they act chances are it means something's up. What they say and how they present their new cameras will become the story regardless of whether one disagrees or can pick holes in the argument. I think the point is that this is a door on which folks will continue to knock from here on in, stores that once never stocked FF cams will now begin to stock them, and so on..

What wave? Do you really think people are starting to buy $2000+ cameras in hordes suddenly? This market segment is forever in the area of niche as most DSLR buyers are simply not willing or able to spent thousands of dollars on cameras and lenses. We are also living in a time of economic downturn. With better and better image quality for smaller and cheaper sensors, the fortunes is definitely not going to be decided in the multi-thousand-dollar brackett. Nikon and Canon is simply filling a niche in the market; a niche they virtually own; a niche previously unsucessfully occupied by Sony. The former will be far more sucessful than Sony but nothing is about to change.
09-20-2012, 07:42 AM   #284
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
Banging on endlessly about the cost of sensors is quite pathetic really because in "the good old days" one had to "endlessly" shell out for film and processing. Digital photography these days is dirt cheap compared to that.
But you didn't have to pay it up front. I had to pay for all the film and deveolping during the rest of my life the moment I bought the K2 in 1976 I would have found myself another hobby. Never mind the fact that I couldn't raise this kind of money.
09-20-2012, 07:55 AM   #285
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
But you didn't have to pay it up front. I had to pay for all the film and deveolping during the rest of my life the moment I bought the K2 in 1976 I would have found myself another hobby. Never mind the fact that I couldn't raise this kind of money.
On the other hand, when I bought my LX in 1982, I paid ~3500 NOK in Singapore, but the price was around ~6000 NOK in Norway. The latter amount corresponds to more than 15000 NOK today (source: SSB), i.e. just a little less than the cost of a D600 body. So the D600 is definitely cheaper when you take film cost into account...
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