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09-20-2012, 08:08 AM   #286
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
But you didn't have to pay it up front. I had to pay for all the film and deveolping during the rest of my life the moment I bought the K2 in 1976 I would have found myself another hobby. Never mind the fact that I couldn't raise this kind of money.
Right. Just because it is cheaper overall does NOT mean it is affordable. This is still a VERY expensive hobby.

Camera
Lenses
Flash(es)
Accessories
Pro Monitor
Callibration hardware/software
Post Processing Software

More than it costs to play golf weekly... the rich man's sport.

09-20-2012, 08:32 AM   #287
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
What wave? Do you really think people are starting to buy $2000+ cameras in hordes suddenly? This market segment is forever in the area of niche as most DSLR buyers are simply not willing or able to spent thousands of dollars on cameras and lenses. We are also living in a time of economic downturn. With better and better image quality for smaller and cheaper sensors, the fortunes is definitely not going to be decided in the multi-thousand-dollar brackett. Nikon and Canon is simply filling a niche in the market; a niche they virtually own; a niche previously unsucessfully occupied by Sony. The former will be far more sucessful than Sony but nothing is about to change.
Lol, sounds just like Nokia when the smartphone was introduced. Now everyone has them but they aren't made by Nokia.

I don't expect Pentax to continue in the way they have until now for a minute longer than they need to. It's over. The APS-C DSLR was and remains a darn good bet but it's become obvious that it is simply not enough on its own to provide a company like Pentax with a credible future. If Pentax sit there and do nothing, they will be overwhelmed on one side by increasingly inexpensive and capable FF cameras and on the other side by increasingly sophisticated mirrorless cams at half the size and weight of the Pentax products, not to mention cheaper to produce.

I imagine that Ricoh bought Pentax because they see it as a potential worldwide consumer electronics brand which hitherto has been undervalued and underfunded. It's very hard to believe they bought Pentax to continue "business as usual" - i.e. the whole farm bet on one format, one use (stills, not video) and one product, the DSLR. It's over.
09-20-2012, 09:12 AM   #288
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
It is not about replacent but diversification.
why does Canon, the 'king' of DSLRs feel the need to 'diversify'?

Last edited by illdefined; 09-20-2012 at 09:18 AM.
09-20-2012, 09:19 AM   #289
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
why does Canon, the 'king' of DSLRs feel the need to 'diversify'?
Thats what you do when you have exploited to the fullest potential the niches you're already in....


Last edited by Pål Jensen; 09-20-2012 at 10:32 AM.
09-20-2012, 01:01 PM - 2 Likes   #290
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Thats what you do when you have exploited to the fullest potential the niches you're already in....
you can keep thinking that if it makes you feel better, but for better or worse, a moving mechanical mirror is a decidedly analog technology.

just like film before it, it will eventually be replaced, and there are companies that are going to be prepared for it and companies that won't be. there are plenty of companies that have abandoned the mirror already and leading the charge on this new front - with enough success to make stalwarts like Canon and Nikon take notice and hedge their bets with actual working products at retail.

Mirrorless has completely revitalized Olympus, Fuji and made Sony a contender again. Who's marketshare do you think they've been biting into exactly?

companies can keep their head in the sand for only so long. Leica, the ultimate photo traditionalists, have put video and a port for an (Olympus) EVF on their precious new M. that's right, video. Even Leica isn't too proud to evolve.

Leica also demoted APS-C off the high-end to their midrange, taking full advantage of their legacy mount and went FF.....two camera generations ago.

as a company, if you're moving slower than *L E I C A*, then you really need to wake up because you're *asleep*

Last edited by illdefined; 09-21-2012 at 12:50 AM.
09-21-2012, 10:42 AM   #291
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Lol, sounds just like Nokia when the smartphone was introduced. Now everyone has them but they aren't made by Nokia.
Nokia has to be the worst run smartphone company ever.
09-21-2012, 11:37 AM   #292
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
you can keep thinking that if it makes you feel better, but for better or worse, a moving mechanical mirror is a decidedly analog technology.

just like film before it, it will eventually be replaced, and there are companies that are going to be prepared for it and companies that won't be. there are plenty of companies that have abandoned the mirror already and leading the charge on this new front - with enough success to make stalwarts like Canon and Nikon take notice and hedge their bets with actual working products at retail.

Mirrorless has completely revitalized Olympus, Fuji and made Sony a contender again. Who's marketshare do you think they've been biting into exactly?

companies can keep their head in the sand for only so long. Leica, the ultimate photo traditionalists, have put video and a port for an (Olympus) EVF on their precious new M. that's right, video. Even Leica isn't too proud to evolve.

Leica also demoted APS-C off the high-end to their midrange, taking full advantage of their legacy mount and went FF.....two camera generations ago.

as a company, if you're moving slower than *L E I C A*, then you really need to wake up because you're *asleep*
I would guess that the mirroless ilc bit into the compact camera and to a degree the low end entry level dSLRs with cheap kit lenses.
09-21-2012, 11:46 AM   #293
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
I would guess that the mirroless ilc bit into the compact camera and to a degree the low end entry level dSLRs with cheap kit lenses.
That may have been true in 2009-2010 (where a lot of these posted DSLR sales figures come from). Fast forward to today in 2012 we have the Olympus OM-D, Panasonic GH series, Sony NEX-6 and 7, Samsung NX and Fuji X-Series. and there's nothing cheap about them or their new high quality lenses.

That's 4-5 established camera companies chopping away at DSLRs with everything they've got.


Last edited by illdefined; 09-21-2012 at 12:19 PM.
09-21-2012, 12:40 PM - 1 Like   #294
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Pentax need a sucessful APS line up to make FF viable. You can't expect a competitive FF camera from a ~5% DSLR marked share player. To increase their share they need to suceed where the volume is first. The APS lens lineup is already the best there is; the release of the roadmapped lenses will make it even more so. I was BTW of the impression that the K-3 was APS? With such a K-3 Penax will have the best APS line up and all thats lacking is marketing and distribution. Actually, people are migrating from FF to APS also (and to other formats as well). The new FF models from Nikon and Canon give us more choices. But they are simpler and cheaper made than previous entry level FF bodies but no less expensive, making sure that the Canon 7D with outsell its simpler made 6D sibling by 10:1.
Here is the Key:
  • Ricoh has a stated goal of 10% market share very rapidly - 1 - 2 years
  • Pentax cannot achieve 10% market share with the North American market in such disarray
  • The Big Dogs from Pentax Japan just took over Pentax USA (PRIAC)
  • Expect rapid, major changes to marketing, distribution, distributor relationships, sales force, merchant credit, In-house versus contracted, outsourced services -- expect change everywhere -- at PRIAC
  • When market share increases - and the attendant sales and cash flow grow- over the coming 12 months, expect the Full Frame camera.
  • Expect a legitimate professional system offering next year, that adds accessories on a regular basis over the following 3 - 5 years. Perhaps not every aspect of the professional market at first, but a legitimate alternative in slices of the pro market.
  • Expect the lens Roadmap to change dramatically (work in progress to be revealed) to suit the bodies.
  • Expect Hoya-derived product to continue to be offered throughh CP+
    • Don't forget, JC said last March the K5 would be in production at least through 12/2012.
Ricoh has essentially told us their plan - you just have to read and listen (Adam is no fool. He doesn't make these posts for Member Count).

It will happen, it will be big and Pentax will be a strong third. They will be known as the alternative brand for discerning, outdoor, low-light shooters (APS & FF); landscape and studio on a reasonable budget (645); extreme hikers and backpackers (WG); and (Back to the Future) innovative, excellent optics.

You read it here first.

Last edited by monochrome; 09-22-2012 at 08:38 PM.
09-21-2012, 12:55 PM   #295
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that's quite a lot of promises. and its going to require a metric ton more faith (and patience) that they'll execute.

nothing looks wrong with the plan, I'm glad they have one now. it reminds me of Samsung's plan...don't know if that's good or bad.

Last edited by illdefined; 09-21-2012 at 01:06 PM.
09-21-2012, 01:18 PM   #296
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Faith has nothing to do with it; it's not like there's zero available information on what they're doing.
For example, we have 3 roadmaps - so far, they're executing them perfectly. They're hiring the R&D personnel fired by Hoya. They're launching products Hoya didn't want to. There should be no doubt they're seriously committed; we just don't know the details of their plan.
09-21-2012, 01:29 PM   #297
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We'll see how far along they are that roadmap next year. best laid plans...

You should be able to understand why Pentax/[insert owner here] can't enjoy the benefit of the doubt just yet. They have a poor track record, hence faith.

What it means for absolute sure is more waiting.

Last edited by illdefined; 09-21-2012 at 01:46 PM.
09-21-2012, 02:08 PM   #298
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Who exactly has a poor track record? The Pentax who launched the K10D and promised the 645D if they were allowed to keep their independence? The Pentax owned by Hoya, who postponed the 645D, also taking their time with the 60-250, sacked the "long telephoto lens" and the 1.4x TC, fired R&D personnel? Or the Pentax, a Ricoh company who barely started, and so far did what they promised?
09-21-2012, 02:11 PM   #299
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What have they delivered exactly besides more road maps?

They've admitted 'everything' they delivered 'so far' was still from Hoya's pipeline. (plus a Tamron rebadge)

Last edited by illdefined; 09-21-2012 at 02:23 PM.
09-21-2012, 02:24 PM   #300
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I don't know... maybe the first 6 items on the roadmaps? Are you saying we should ignore real products, and whine instead about how they're delivering only roadmaps?
Obviously, there was no time to develop completely new products so they finished ones "from Hoya's pipeline" - doh! But don't forget how Hoya wasn't willing to launch them to market - Ricoh is.
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